# What has Israel ever done for us? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892 "2016-03-22T22:00:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/21 "2016-03-23T01:17:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Such a deal I have for you! > > Actually, I was just giving the OP some data. I was not endorsing defense of Israel based on it’s position in the chart. I’m a strong defender of Israel’s right to exist, but I have little interest in the US being its guarantor of existence. I’ll defend Israel’s right to exist because it does, now . . . but if I could go back in time, I would buttonhole Theodore Herzl and say, “This Zionism thing . . . forget it. Don’t even start. I’m a time traveler and I’ve seen what it leads to. [and give him details] The movement will succeed, but you’ll be buying a lot more problems than it will solve.” Of course, even if he believes me it might not discourage him. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/22 "2016-03-23T01:22:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ll defend Israel’s right to exist because it does, now . . . but if I could go back in time, I would buttonhole Theodore Herzl and say, “This Zionism thing . . . forget it. Don’t even start. I’m a time traveler and I’ve seen what it leads to. [and give him details] The movement will succeed, but you’ll be buying a lot more problems than it will solve.” Would you also tell him about the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/23 "2016-03-23T01:22:22Z")
There was a lot of captured Soviet equipment Israel made available to the USA for evaluation. Israel’s air force found out the hard way that current USA built F-15s had some unforeseen weaknesses against Soviet bloc anti-air defenses, and they passed that info on to the US. Israel has access to some intelligence that the US doesn’t have. And when the F-16 a friend of mine was flying over Libya on a, um, training mission one day picked up some damage from, um, some tree branches, he was permitted to land in Israel to have the, um, dent pounded out from the skin of the F-16. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/24 "2016-03-23T01:44:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Would you also tell him about the Holocaust? I would – and I would tell him the Zionist movement could do nothing whatsoever to prevent it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/25 "2016-03-23T01:48:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Directly, they have a strong intelligence network which they share to some degree… Yeah, I’ve heard about it. They use it to spy on the U.S. a lot. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/26 "2016-03-23T02:01:57Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Yeah, I’ve heard about it. They use it to spy on the U.S. a lot. Golly gee willickers, that’s shocking. Glad the U.S. doesn’t get up to such shenanigans as spying on it’s allies! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/27 "2016-03-23T02:27:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I would – and I would tell him the Zionist movement could do nothing whatsoever to prevent it anyway. From 1933 to 1936, about 174,000 Jews, most of them from Germany and Eastern Europe, emigrated to Israel. Over the entire time period of 1929-1940, about 250,000. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/28 "2016-03-23T02:36:37Z")
If we could convince them to join the United States as our 51st state, we could build permanent military bases there. With the added security, industry could move in an tap into the cheap labor pool among Palestinians making everyone involved rich. Start dangling Chevy Volts in front of the would-be terrorists maybe they think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/29 "2016-03-23T02:37:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I would – and I would tell him the Zionist movement could do nothing whatsoever to prevent it anyway. I now see Captain Amazing making about the same point, but: There were about 400,000 Jews in Palestine at the start of World War II. I don’t know exactly how many of them had come, since the start of Zionism around 1880, from places in Europe where they probably would have been killed. But, very roughly, I think that it was maybe half. Let’s say that two-thirds of them would have been killed by Hitler, since about 2/3 of Europe’s Jews were killed by Hitler. So, then, Zionism saved maybe, say, 130,000 Jews. I don’t think it would go over too well with him to call that nothing. He also might not have thought that Israel taking in most of the Jewish population, expelled from Arab countries as colonialism faded, was nothing. You could balance that against 100,000 people killed in Arab-Israeli Wars. But I wouldn’t, because if not for Zionism, the non-Zionist Jewish population of Palestine would have been thoroughly massacred by now. One thing not taken into account, in these kinds of discussions, is that there were massacres, in Palestine, before Zionism. There are other historical figures, associated with national liberation movements, you could tell things to. You could tell George Washington that separating from Britain would embolden the Germans to attack Western Europe and Russia in the two highest death toll European wars of all time, with America required to belatedly come to the rescue both times with great loss of life. I could argue that Americans have less right to most of the land in the United States than do the Israelis in Israel. Or is it OK because native Americans, who still controlled big areas of the American west when my grandparents were born, were more thoroughly defeated than the Arabs? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/30 "2016-03-23T02:45:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ll defend Israel’s right to exist because it does, now … This is fair enough, and of course applies to lots of countries. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/31 "2016-03-23T02:54:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Golly gee willickers, that’s shocking. Glad the U.S. doesn’t get up to such shenanigans as spying on it’s allies! As far as I know, we haven’t asked our allies to fund our intelligence operations that spy on them. This situation is like giving pocket money to an indigent nephew to do sneaky shit to you. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/32 "2016-03-23T02:59:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is not a “border dispute,” it is an Apartheid regime. These are our values?! They might not actually massacre Palestinians, but any WB resident who can’t go from one town to another without passing through an IDF checkpoint, or a Gaza resident going hungry because of the blockade, won’t think it’s all that much better. That’s how that part of the world works, and the apartheid is based primarily on nationality rather than race or religion. Israeli Arabs are full citizens, Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian Arabs are not. They are hostile populations under occupation and treated as such. Now that doesn’t mean that Israel’s behavior is peachy keen, but I’d put their record as an occupier up against anyone’s, including our own. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/33 "2016-03-23T03:01:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ll defend Israel’s right to exist because it does, now . . . but if I could go back in time, I would buttonhole Theodore Herzl and say, “This Zionism thing . . . forget it. Don’t even start. I’m a time traveler and I’ve seen what it leads to. [and give him details] The movement will succeed, but you’ll be buying a lot more problems than it will solve.” > > Of course, even if he believes me it might not discourage him. Perhaps, but you might also want to tell the Pilgrims that too, and possibly all those tribes of white people that destroyed the Roman Empire. Heck, why not tell Europe right now that in 200 years they’ll be part of the Muslim world so they can act now to prevent that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/34 "2016-03-23T03:22:38Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If we could convince them to join the United States as our 51st state . . . Given the establishment clause of the First Amendment, that would be the end of the “Jewish State,” and would cause a lot of follow-on disruptions to their society. I don’t think they want that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/35 "2016-03-23T13:29:50Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I believe that a lot of aid was promised to Israel, Eqypt, and Jordan in return for signing peace treaties that apparently were more important to the US than those most affected. Can anyone check to see if this obligation is still in effect? Yes, sort of. One of the conditions of the aid was that if any of the countries had a coup overthrowing the government, the aid was supposed to stop. Egypt had a coup and overthrew its government, but Obama and Congress decided not to press the point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/36 "2016-03-23T13:39:33Z")
Last night I read the lengthy article in the new Atlantic about Obama’s views on foreign policy. To paraphrase, he feels not much in the Middle East is vital to US interests, and he feels there are more positive possibilities in the future in Asia, Latin America, and Africa. Talks at length about how traditional “allies” such as Saudi and Pakistan, are not so much. So, yeah, if we feel we need to be involved in the Mideast, Israel is of some use to us. But I find myself wondering if the Mideast would be more or less fucked up were it not for Israel. If we felt some loyalty to the Jews, why don’t we give them a slice of our own desert? Maybe include a port in California to allow them shipping access. Heck, maybe give them a thin slice all along the border with Mexico - 2 birds with one stone! 😉 Sure the Jews - and other tribes - place value on specific plots of dirt, but if there were an all out war in the area, it wouldn’t take long for Israel to be rendered uninhabitable. If Trump wants to build his wall, maybe around the friggin’ Mideast might be a better place than Mexico! I’m not anti-Israel as much as a don’t care about the Mideast other than that they keep their crazy to themselves. And, unfortunately for Israel, that’s where they are. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/37 "2016-03-23T13:50:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s ok, Canada could have its own nukes in a month or two if you prefer. I don’t think Canada could build a functioning nuclear weapon that quickly. Certainly they could be built and Canada has the materials and know-how to do so, but actually designing and construction a working warhead would take longer than a month or two. A crash building program and maybe you have one in six months. It’s a really complicated thing to build, and part and parcel of it is having some sort of delivery system for the weapon, which Canada presently doesn’t have, even if it’s just building a bomb casing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/38 "2016-03-23T13:59:28Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The first significant aid came during and after the 1973 war. Before that, Israel received little more than Lyndon Johnson’s sincere good wishes. This contrasted with Harry Truman’s phony good wishes, and actual arms embargo, during the Israeli War of Independence. > > Moving to the more or less present, here are the top five aid recipients for 2013, [per Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#Recipients): > > Afghanistan $4,533.51 million > Israel $2,961.04 million > Egypt $1,566.24 million > Jordan $1,211.83 > West Bank/Gaza $1,007.73 > > I believe that a lot of aid was promised to Israel, Eqypt, and Jordan in return for signing peace treaties that apparently were more important to the US than those most affected. Can anyone check to see if this obligation is still in effect? > > As can be seen in my link, more than 99 percent of US assistance to Israel is military. This is indirect but real support for US arms manufacturers. > > I favor gradual reduction of US aid to Israel, and its adversaries, going down to almost zero. As for the almost, I favor aid in case of famines and natural disasters. I also favor the kind of modest gifts, to good local causes, that any US ambassador should be allowed to bestow. Also, an emergency arms shipment, in a 1973 repeat scenario is, to me, justified. But I wouldn’t give routine aid. > > This would result in Israel building more of its arms locally, with fewer imports from the US. My proposal to offset the loss of US arms production jobs is this: Allow Taiwan to purchase all the conventional American-made weapons it can afford. I would favour gradual reduction, too, as being basically no longer necessary. However, on a purely value for cash basis, the US payments to Israelis and Arabs alike has proved to be a successful foreign policy strategy. There hasn’t been a large-scale war involving Egypt, Israel and Jordan since the payment started. Contrast this with the _rest_ of the ME, now involved in protracted, ruinous war - even after the US spend something like two Trillion dollars fighting in Iraq. If stability is a US goal, paying countries to behave has proved more successful and less expensive than direct intervention. Why is it in the US best interests to preserve peace in the region? Why should they care? Well, for one, because a good part of the world’s energy still comes from the region. In the past, Arab-Israeli wars have led to oil price instability, which has affected the US. In the future, this factor will include Israel itself. Though this fact has not made its mark on public consciousness yet, Israel has discovered large reserves of natural gas (such as the “Leviathan” field), and has plans with Greece to export this to Europe, a fact which has geopolitical importance (Europe currently imports a lot from Russia). In short, Israeli reserves can act in the future to counterbalance (somewhat - the Israeli reserves are quite small compared to the Russian) Russian energy influence in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/39 "2016-03-23T14:14:36Z")
What has Israel ever done for us? Where the hell do you think Jesus came from??? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892/40 "2016-03-23T14:36:55Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > All of that is irrelevant. They are a Western, industrial country that is holding its own against the surrounding savage theocracies. That’s enough for me. In what fantasy world is this existing? the Lebanon: a secular republic, semi-democratic the Syria: secular republic, socialist authoritarianism the Egypt: secular republic, socialist authoritarianism that became military authoritarianism the Jordan: secular monarchy but I suppose it is an accurate statement of the Hollywood action film understanding of the region that the americans have and their distorted stereotypes of the savage sub-human sand peple. Just like the star wars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-israel-ever-done-for-us/749892.md?page=3)