# What has our Righties in a lather, of late? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630 "2005-06-02T22:13:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/81 "2005-06-03T15:37:58Z")
Sam, I have always admired you as a poster. You are demonstrating much more patience than I would have under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/82 "2005-06-03T15:52:03Z")
Ah. A case in point. > [@SteveG1](#): > > Who the fuck will protect us from Bush? What has Bush really accomplished to make anyone more secure, except to dredge up a (by your own admission) fake boogeyman. Seen any terrorist attacks here at home lately, Steve? > [@SteveG1](#): > > And fuck the religious right, the christian reconstructionists, the dominionists, the false prophets. Read up on Rushdooney, Gary North, and the rest of them. They are fucking nazi bastards. Theocratic state. World conquest. Bibilcal law (except when it would apply to them). A priestking caste. Fuck them bastards. Fuck the security moms (and security dads) too. Seek help. > [@SteveG1](#): > > All they needed was a “Pearl Harbor”. I bet they all creamed their pants when they saw those poor people jumping from the Trade Center. This is esprecially precious. > [@SteveG1](#): > > So where the fuck IS Bin Laden? Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/83 "2005-06-03T15:54:33Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Seen any terrorist attacks here at home lately, Steve? I wear a grape lollipop on a string around my neck to keep the elephants away. See? It works! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/84 "2005-06-03T15:58:07Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > I wear a grape lollipop on a string around my neck to keep the elephants away. > > See? It works! I know the idea that the policy changes after 9/11 are actually working is a concept that many of you can’t accept. That’s fine. Just keep your heads in the sand and your thumbs in your mouth and let the adults handle things. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/85 "2005-06-03T16:01:54Z")
No, it’s just that we like to see evidence when assertions such as yours are made. What’s the evidence that these “policy changes” are working? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/86 "2005-06-03T16:04:49Z")
The lack of body parts strewn all over the place like they were after 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/87 "2005-06-03T16:20:58Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > The lack of body parts strewn all over the place like they were after 9/11. The lack of elephants near me is evidence that the lollipop works. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/88 "2005-06-03T16:24:21Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > At no point did I suggest that support for the war was thoughtless and irresponsible. No, of course \*you \* did not. Many of the _rest of us_ out here in the “reality-based community” are, though. > [@](#): > > Not is it circular reasoning to claim that if you’ve already accepted the need for war, you’ll look less critically at evidence that supports your position. The circularity comes in considering that “evidence” to be the basis for holding that position in the first place. You assumed your conclusion. That is dishonest. > [@](#): > > How many breathless reports of anti-bush evidence have shown up on this board by people who desperately want to believe any dirt on Bush? The evaluation \*starts \* with the evidence. If an assessment of the evidence forces the conclusion that Bush has been irresponsible, that’s honest. Your pathetic attempt to dismiss facts as being the result of a desperate desire shows that you don’t even understand what intellectual honesty _is_, much less practice it. > [@](#): > > How much mileage did the fake National Guard memo get here, even long after there was solid evidence showing them to be forgeries? Much less than your own puppylike belief in the Swifties, for one. For another, the memo had exactly jack to do with Bush’s own irresponsible conduct thirty years earlier. > [@](#): > > the critical analysis is left to the people on the other side. Kindly provide an example of the “critical analysis” you have provided that has withstood even mild scrutiny. > [@](#): > > This is just human nature. Not in general. It’s \*your \* nature, though. > [@smiling bandit](#): > > There is no circularity. Saddam could have blinked. Back up. You also are assuming your conclusion, that war was necessary/inevitable. It was not necessary to make him blink or not. > [@](#): > > More to the point, had certain parties not been deliberately sabotaging the diplomatic process for their financial gain, he probably would have blinked. Now that deserves some explication on your part. What parties and what sabotage? [qutoe]They weren’t lies; he just didn’t have them in the amounts we feared. [/quote] Behold the extent that a desperate need to avoid accepting responsibility can take. \*\*Sam \*\* at least dodges the issue. Saddam > [@](#): > > Congress, despite having the same access as Bush, was fooled. No, they did not have the same access. Bush suppressed any mention of alternative hypotheses, or any hedging or uncertainties, first. > [@](#): > > And Bush did not lie. He may have ignored some reports in favor of others, but he was doing so in the context of a contradictory reports, where one side had the weight of years of evidence. Even accepting that summation to be accurate and fair (it is not), what does a moral person do in the face of such uncertainty? Start a war and get people killed anyway, _or not_? Do either of you accept any responsibility for all of the thousands of deaths Bush has caused in Iraq or not? If not, why not? Do you have an honest answer? On preview: **Evil One** , the list of US and other casualties is updated daily [here](http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx). The largest part of them involve “strewn body parts”. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/89 "2005-06-03T16:26:38Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Sam, I have always admired you as a poster. “You know, I’ve often thought of becoming a golf club.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/90 "2005-06-03T16:35:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They were very successful in having Mr. Clinton impeached. They were rather less successful in having him convicted in the Senate on the charges, Being a Democrat and liking Clinton a lot as President if less as governor, I can’t help but wonder if all the Senators found evelopes on their porch the morning of the vote containing pictures of _them_ getting a BJ, or with a duck, or whatever. 🙂 BTW, how did Liberman vote? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/91 "2005-06-03T16:36:04Z")
**Sam** : You are underestimating the severity of waging war. I agree that it’s absurd the amount of virtiol thrown at Bush over very debatable policy decisions like tax issues or ANWAR drilling. But there is no more serious, no more deadly act that a nation’s government can take than waging war. This war was simply not necessary. Simply not necessary. And you can’t blame people for anger, even hatred, towards Bush for sending this country in that direction. But the problem with a lot of people here is that denouncing the war is not enough. You have to hate Bush for everything he does or else your a moron; just one of the “sheeple”. It’s hard to take any debate seriously when people debating can’t even use Bush’s name properly. It has to be BushCo, Shrub, Chimpface or Fearless Misleader. As shrill as some of the righties can be around here, I don’t recall even one instance during the campaign of someone mocking Kerry’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/92 "2005-06-03T16:42:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It has to be BushCo, Shrub, Chimpface or Fearless Misleader. As shrill as some of the righties can be around here, I don’t recall even one instance during the campaign of someone mocking Kerry’s name. I prefer ‘Monkey Boy’ or ‘Ook-Ook’. I did hear Kerry referred to as ‘Lurch’ and ‘Herman Munster’. Oh, and ‘The Flip-Flopper’ seemed to be fairly popular. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/93 "2005-06-03T16:44:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The lack of body parts strewn all over the place like they were after 9/11. False conclusion, I’m afraid. al Qaida had a practice (mentioned often in U.S. intelligence reports) of spending several _years_ developing a terrorist attack on a major target. So while it is possible (and to be hoped) that our intervention in Afghanistan actually disrupted that organization to the point where the next major attack will not be attempted until 2008 or 2010 instead of 2006, there is clearly no evidence _nor any reason to believe_ that our adventure in Iraq has had any impact on their next attack on the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/94 "2005-06-03T16:45:10Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I know the idea that the policy changes after 9/11 are actually working is a concept that many of you can’t accept. That’s fine. The policy changes are cosmetic crap, that really only authorize the government to spy on its own citizens (Patriot Act, Real ID, etc). The war policy was already in place, and there only needed to be an excuse (re the Downing Street memo). There were no WMD at all (re the UN and CIA reports). Where’s Osama? Pakistan. Well duh. We had him and let him slip out of our fingers by farming the job out to local warlords (like maybe we still need him to be our boogeyman and didn’t want to catch him). During the election debates, Osama was no longer important according to Bush. Did you miss that? What happened to “where comin’ ta getcha”? > [@Evil One](#): > > Just keep your heads in the sand and your thumbs in your mouth and let the adults handle things. I am an adult. I’m 52 years old. I was in the Army, I have a degree, am a former (as in ex) Republican, and have worked in the defense industry (both the private sector and government side). Not exactly the sort of profile a bleeding heart liberal dove would have, is it? Don’t give me any of your “adult” bullshit. I’m adult enough to resent any administration (composed of cowards and draft dodgers) that gets our people killed, or anyone else’s people killed over ego and ambition and stupidity. I resent that they think I’m so damn stupid they can lie to me and then change the lie whenever it suits them. The slogans changed quite a bit during the election debates. Yeah, I take that personally. As far as the far out there religious right, do a search for quotes and “mission statements” for the people and groups I named. I think you’ll be shocked and appalled. R.J. Rushdooney, Gary North, Paul Cameron, Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, Francis Schaeffer, Dominionist, Christian Reconstructionist. Read what John Danforth says about them. Read the Southern Poverty Law Center report. Then get back to us. I may have my head in the sand (don’t think so) but yours is firmly locked in your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/95 "2005-06-03T16:57:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > False conclusion, I’m afraid. al Qaida had a practice (mentioned often in U.S. intelligence reports) of spending several _years_ developing a terrorist attack on a major target. So while it is possible (and to be hoped) that our intervention in Afghanistan actually disrupted that organization to the point where the next major attack will not be attempted until 2008 or 2010 instead of 2006, there is clearly no evidence _nor any reason to believe_ that our adventure in Iraq has had any impact on their next attack on the U.S. I may not have been clear in my brief response. I was not referencing the Iraq war when I mentioned “policy changes”. I was referring to the attacks on Al Qaida in Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, the announced policy of preemption and everything else that added up to being proactive in preventing and disrupting terrorism. It’s somewhat frustrating to hear people say that GWB has done nothing that makes us safer. The bottom line is that we just don’t know either way. If the CIA or FBI is successful in penetrating a terror cell, the last thing they are going to do is tell us about it. None of us on the outside has any idea how many plots have been disrupted or how many people have been arrested. I feel safe in saying that only the most blindly partisan among us would seriously say that “nothing GWB has done has made any difference”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/96 "2005-06-03T17:05:37Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > It’s somewhat frustrating to hear people say that GWB has done nothing that makes us safer. A case could be made that by initiating a war of aggression against a sovereign nation, and by justifying that war by presenting ‘evidence’ to the world that has been shown to be false, that Bush and his administration has made us _less_ safe. Saddam was an evil man as much as his idol Stalin, but he did keep the terrorist groups in Iraq under control (or to be more accurate, ruthlessly subjugated them). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/97 "2005-06-03T17:11:46Z")
Steve, the “adult” comment was made to Johnny L.A. based on his apparent low level of capability to add something to the discussion beyond one sentence of marginal relevance. That said, your comment about the people you oppose “creaming their pants” when they saw people jumping out of the World Trade Center was in poor taste and intellectually dishonest. Are you seriously saying that some people saw 9/11 as a political opportunity and were happy that it happened? As for the mission statements of the religious right, I don’t take them any more seriously than I do the mission statements of the American Communist Party. They don’t have the numbers to turn the country into what they want it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/98 "2005-06-03T17:14:52Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > There is no circularity. Saddam could have blinked. More to the point, had certain parties not been deliberately sabotaging the diplomatic process for their financial gain, he probably would have blinked. That was an acceptable solution and would have been better all around. Saddam did blink. [Testimony of Hans Blix, chief weapons inspector, pre-war.](http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/SC7asdelivered.htm) > [@](#): > > Initial difficulties raised by the Iraqi side about helicopters and aerial surveillance planes operating in the no-fly zones were overcome. This is not to say that the operation of inspections is free from frictions, but at this juncture we are able to perform professional no-notice inspections all over Iraq and to increase aerial surveillance. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/99 "2005-06-03T17:20:13Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Steve, the “adult” comment was made to Johnny L.A. based on his apparent low level of capability to add something to the discussion beyond one sentence of marginal relevance. Fuck you very much, **Evil One**. Apparently you have a low level of capability to comprehend hyperbolic analogies. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/100 "2005-06-03T17:20:32Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > A case could be made that by initiating a war of aggression against a sovereign nation, and by justifying that war by presenting ‘evidence’ to the world that has been shown to be false, that Bush and his administration has made us _less_ safe. Saddam was an evil man as much as his idol Stalin, but he did keep the terrorist groups in Iraq under control (or to be more accurate, ruthlessly subjugated them). Time will tell whether this was the right decision or not. It turns out that the Marshall Plan was the right call. Yalta was not, at least for the eastern europeans. In twenty years, will Iraq be an example of democracy in the middle east that leads other to follow or a killing ground mired in civil war? It’s still to early to tell at this point. Are you one of those people who refuses to see the link between our action in Afghanistan and Iraq and the change of heart in Libya and the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon? And what do you think the consequences would have been to leave Saddam in place? The terrorism problem had been building for a generation before 9/11 and it won’t be solved overnight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630.md?page=6)