# What has our Righties in a lather, of late? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630 "2005-06-02T22:13:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/101 "2005-06-03T17:24:21Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Fuck you very much, **Evil One**. Apparently you have a low level of capability to comprehend hyperbolic analogies. :rolleyes: Oh I got them. But they were still marginally relevant to the conversation. You were attempting to be cute and to irritate rather than directly addressing the point I was making. I saw your more substantial post after I had already posted the comment. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/102 "2005-06-03T17:24:38Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > It’s somewhat frustrating to hear people say that GWB has done nothing that makes us safer. The bottom line is that we just don’t know either way. If the CIA or FBI is successful in penetrating a terror cell, the last thing they are going to do is tell us about it. None of us on the outside has any idea how many plots have been disrupted or how many people have been arrested. I feel safe in saying that only the most blindly partisan among us would seriously say that “nothing GWB has done has made any difference”. It’s somewhat frustrating to hear people say that what GWB has done makes us safer. The bottom line is that we just don’t know either way. If the CIA or FBI is unsuccessful in penetrating a terror cell, the last thing they are going to do is tell us about it. None of us on the outside has any idea how many plots have been undetected or how many people have slipped through. I feel safe in saying that only the most blindly partisan among us would seriously say that “GWB has made all the difference”. > [@Evil One](#): > > I know the idea that the policy changes after 9/11 are actually working is a concept that many of you can’t accept. That’s fine. Just keep your heads in the sand and your thumbs in your mouth and let the adults handle things. Funny, just after you said they are working you back off and say there is no way to know if they are working or not. Somehow you came by the conclusion in your first post while you yourself admit there is no way to validly reach said conclusion. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/103 "2005-06-03T17:27:57Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Ahem…Clinton wasn’t impeached on the basis of a “blowjob”; he was impeached on the basis of _lying_ to a federal grand jury and for obstruction of justice! Further, as a result of his actions he was disbarred from practicing law for five years in his home state of Arkansas. Pretty serious stuff for just a “blowjob”, don’t you think? > > And you say _I_ lack discernment! :rolleyes: Yes, **Starving Artist** , I’m aware that you’ve drunk the Limbaugh Kool-Aid. Keep repeating what he said. On the basis of your apparent gross misunderstanding of the politics involved in that issue, though, and your reductive sort of “OMG!!1!! he l13d!!!11!” kind of reasoning, then yes, I’m still prepared to say you lack discernment. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/104 "2005-06-03T17:30:47Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > The lack of elephants near me is evidence that the lollipop works. Last I checked, Alaska was pretty solidly red. 😛 As a ‘Rightie’ I just get sick of being lumped into one giant stereotype. A good way to tell which liberal posters I like and those I loathe is to see if they do that or not. Not every conservative or Republican is ‘blindly following Bush’ or only out for themselves. Don’t say “you started this illegal war” because I didn’t. Nor did I allow Enron to pull their shit. Sometimes having to defend ones self while trying to defend the arguement, two things that can be very different, just gets tiring. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/105 "2005-06-03T17:31:18Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Are you one of those people who refuses to see the link between our action in Afghanistan and Iraq and the change of heart in Libya and the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon? And what do you think the consequences would have been to leave Saddam in place? > > The terrorism problem had been building for a generation before 9/11 and it won’t be solved overnight. Libya has been rather quiet since Reagan’s attack on them after the West Berlin bombing. The point is that initiating a war of aggression against Iraq was _wrong_, no matter how bad Saddam was. It was sold to the American people with lies. I’ve heard that half of Americans or more still believe that Iraq was in league with Al Qaida. I was all for invading Afghanistan, as that’s where Al Qaida was based. Given the opportunity, I’d have gone over myself. But attacking Iraq was unjustified. What would have happened if Iraq had not been attacked? For one thing, there would be no insurgents and a couple thousand Americans and troops from other countries and many thousands of Iraqis would still be alive. Saddam would have continued to rattle his sabre. But evidence shows that Iraq had no WMDs, and that Saddam was not persuing them. He wanted everyone to _think_ he had a programme, because that was part of his strategy of keeping Iran at bay/nervous. Re: Our recent disagreement. Let’s call it over with. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/106 "2005-06-03T17:37:58Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Seen any terrorist attacks here at home lately, Steve? Under the Patriot Act, those two grenades that exploded ouside the British Consulate last month were the act of a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/107 "2005-06-03T17:38:13Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > It’s somewhat frustrating to hear people say that GWB has done nothing that makes us safer. The bottom line is that we just don’t know either way. Why the hell _is_ that the bottom line? If a traitor-president like F.D.R. can take us from Pearl harbor on December 7, 1941 to VJ day on August 15, 1945, while also kicking Euro-Trash Ass, why can’t America’s Freedom-President take us from September 11th, 2001, to at least some concrete evidence that something is changing for the better in a similar time period? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/108 "2005-06-03T17:41:26Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Re: Our recent disagreement. Let’s call it over with. I totally agree. I didn’t mean to get personal. We have more in common than you realize. I spend part of my time helping high school kids make movies. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/109 "2005-06-03T17:42:35Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Last I checked, Alaska was pretty solidly red. [nitpick] **Johnny** ’s somewhere around Seattle.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/110 "2005-06-03T17:45:30Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Under the Patriot Act, those two grenades that exploded ouside the British Consulate last month were the act of a terrorist. You’re reaching, Lute. You know exactly what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/111 "2005-06-03T17:46:48Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Why the hell _is_ that the bottom line? If a traitor-president like F.D.R. can take us from Pearl harbor on December 7, 1941 to VJ day on August 15, 1945, while also kicking Euro-Trash Ass, why can’t America’s Freedom-President take us from September 11th, 2001, to at least some concrete evidence that something is changing for the better in a similar time period? I think we can agree that the dynamics of WWII are a bit different than those of the war on terror. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/112 "2005-06-03T17:56:41Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I think we can agree that the dynamics of WWII are a bit different than those of the war on terror. Yes, one we won, the other we spent years dicking around futily in Godforsaken deserts. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/113 "2005-06-03T17:59:24Z")
**Sam** : > [@](#): > > - Once again, you misunderstand me. I’m not saying the WMD argument was a smokescreen. I certainly believed it. What I’m saying is that support for the war wasn’t solely because of the belief in WMD, but rather that a lot of people were willing to uncritically accept the WMD argument **because they already bought into the idea of military force.** \* Ah, indeed. In other words, you decided, before inspecting the facts, that the US should invade Iraq. After making this decision, you chose to believe virtually anything that supported your decision, and to further promote those spurious beliefs tirelessly here, on the boards. You know, **Sam** , it’s one thing to “uncritically” accept an assertion, tentatively, because it fits with one’s preconceived beliefs. It is quite another to continue to cling to that assertion when an overwhelming amount of counter-evidence demonstrates it to be questionable, if not downright false. And after the debates held on these boards, in which the evidence for and against the government’s claims was inspected under a microscope, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for your “uncritical” acceptance of the “WMD argument.” At all. But there is a difference between what you say in this post, and what you wrote above. Above, you implied that you knew all along the real reason behind the invasion of Iraq was not its alleged possession of “WMDs.” Given this, you would have us believe that Iraq’s possession of these weapons were, in actuality, _irrelevant_ to the debate surrounding the invasion. That’s why, you argue, Republicans are not more outraged about the absence of these weapons; you would have us believe they knew, all along, that there was a overriding, albeit unarticulated, reason for the invasion, and the WMD argument was subsidiary. Your belief in Iraq’s possession of “WMDs,” and your faith in David Kay’s smile, are thus irrelevant to your previous point. So what if you believed in them? They were never your main argument in the first place, you seem to say. To which I reply: 1) at any point during our debates you could have pursued this line of reasoning, had you chosen to do so. You did not. 2) You argued repeatedly that the US must invade Iraq precisely because it possessed “WMDs.” You never once claimed that, in fact, this allegation was actually irrelevant to your position. Certainly some proponents of the invasion floated the argument that we needed to invade Iraq as a part of our “war on terror.” There were two flavours to that argument: 1) We need to remake the middle east, so that it is less of a “terrorist hotbed.” (This is the last thin reed of justification war proponents have left to cling to.) 2) We need to overthrow Hussein as part of our war on terror, because if we don’t **he will give “WMDs” to the terrorists.** Obviously, this line of argument hinged on the basic idea that he possessed such weapons to start with – which he did not. Regardless, the idea that the Iraq invasion was _really_ about fighting terrorism, rather than relieving Saddam of his “WMDs,” only gained currency after it was discovered that he possessed none. > [@](#): > > - A counter-example would be environmentalists who uncritically accept a flawed report on global warming, because the already believe that global warming is happening.\* No. A counter-example would be an environmentalist who “uncritically” accepts a flawed report on global warming, regardless of whether global warming is occurring, because in reality he hates Enron, and will do anything in his power to bring it down, regardless of the facts of the case. A counter-example would be an environmentalist who clings to a flawed report on global warming in the face of overwhelming evidence that the report is flawed, and who, when finally admitting that it was flawed, tries to rationalize his unreasonable behaviour by claiming that everyone has tendency to cling to their preconceptions. I find the assertion that you made some sort of innocent mistake here, because of a foible shared by all of us, insulting. Go peddle it somewhere else. > [@](#): > > - And no, my two positions don’t contradict each other. You can believe that the government will do a lousy job of cleaning up after a war and still think the war is necessary.\* You mean, like [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4094667&postcount=21)? > [@](#): > > originally posted by **Sam Stone** > > - There hasn’t been ANY planning? Iraq is a disaster? I guess that’s the impression you might get if all you read is the New York Times, but the traditional media has a habit of only printing stories of disaster and destruction. > > If you listen to what the people on the ground in Iraq are saying, you get a very different picture. And not just Bush officials. Soldiers, workers with NGOs, even Democratic Congressmen. They all say we are getting a very distorted picture of what’s going on in Iraq. > > The reality is this: > • The coalition had planned to have 1000 schools renovated by the start of the school year. By that time, 1500 had actually been renovated. > • Electicity output is now quite a bit higher than it was before the war (4350 MW, pre-war, 3500 MW). > • Six months ago, there were no police on duty. There are now over 40,000 Iraqi police, 7,000 in Baghdad alone. And the CPA has been thinking out of the box - they are flying thousands of Iraqis to Eastern Europe to train police en-masse in a huge ex-Soviet facility, and will have tens of thousands more police on duty in the next few months. > • Nearly all of Iraq’s 400 courts are open and functioning, and for the first time in its history, the judiciary is fully independent. > • All 22 universities and 43 technical institutes are open again, as are almost all schools. > • Teachers in Iraq earn 12 to 25 times as much as they did under Saddam. > • All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open. > • Doctors earn eight times what they did under Saddam. > • Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from almiost nothing under Saddam to 700 tons in May, to a total of 12,000 tons today. > • 22 million vaccines have been administered to Iraqi children. > • The commercial life is booming. Shops are full of goods. Satellite Dishes are selling like hotcakes. The streets are clogged with cars, and they are being imported into the country by the thousands. > • Over 150 independent newspapers are being published. > • The military has been doing massive amounts of reconstruction work, using their own emergency funds and funds from Saddam’s seized assets. Hundreds upon hundreds of civil construction projects. Everything from painting schools to repairing bridges and roads. > • The majority of people even in the ‘Sunni Triangle’ think they are better off today, and want the U.S. to stay. Outside of the triangle, the coalition is even more popular. A huge majority of people think they’ll be better off in five years. > • Security is improving all through the country. The curfew in Baghdad has been rolled back an hour because of improving security conditions. > > I suggest you ignore the American media, and go right to the source material, which is where I’ve gotten most of this information from. > > Here is the web site of Iraq-Today, an independent Iraqi newspaper. > > Here’s the web site for the Coalition Provisional Authority. > > Yes, there are lots of problems. This is a country that went through 30 years of tyranny, and three major wars in the last 20 years. It’s a mess. And the reconstruction effort started very badly. But it is improving, and faster than you’d think. It is scandalous that all you hear in the popular media is stories of destruction, because that’s just one small part of the overall picture.\* Now you would have us believe that you thought the government was doing a lousy job right from the beginning, in accordance with your purported political views? Don’t make me laugh. > [@](#): > > - As for calling me a liar, I expected no better from you, so I won’t bother to comment.\* Try taking the high road all you like, **Sam** , but your double standards and hypocrisy is transparent to anyone who can read. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/114 "2005-06-03T18:00:46Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > You’re reaching, Lute. You know exactly what I meant. You said “any”. Not all terrorists come from other countries, you know. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/115 "2005-06-03T18:03:10Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Steve, the “adult” comment was made to Johnny L.A. based on his apparent low level of capability to add something to the discussion beyond one sentence of marginal relevance. OK, I will back off on that and apologize. > [@Evil One](#): > > That said, your comment about the people you oppose “creaming their pants” when they saw people jumping out of the World Trade Center was in poor taste and intellectually dishonest. Are you seriously saying that some people saw 9/11 as a political opportunity and were happy that it happened? That is exactly what I am saying, without reservation. Remember back. Falwell, Dobson et al jumped on it as a “judgment by God” against gays, liberals and Democrats. They were ecstatic about it. They also orgasmed over the tsunami I bet. _Whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished (Proverbs 17:5b)_ Bush used it as a reason to go to Afghanistan (which I supported) and then leveraged into an invasion of Iraq (which I did not support). > [@Evil One](#): > > As for the mission statements of the religious right, I don’t take them any more seriously than I do the mission statements of the American Communist Party. They don’t have the numbers to turn the country into what they want it to be. They don’t need the numbers, if they can whisper in the right ears and make the right “contributions”, and as long as they can reach “the faithful” through their “ministries”. They are dangerous. They are the Enemy, as in “defend the constitution … against all enemies, foreign and domestic” Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives. – Barry Goldwater …There is no such thing as … separation of state and church … in the Constitution. It’s a lie of the left. – Pat Robertson Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate. – Ulysses S. Grant I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good … if a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It’s that simple. Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country… former leader of Operation Rescue – Randall Terry (he sounds a lot like Emperor Palpatine) Democracy is the great love of the failures and cowards of life. [R.J. Rushdoony, _Thy Kingdom Come_,1978] One faith, one law and one standard of justice did not mean democracy. The heresy of democracy has since then worked havoc in church and state . . . Christianity and democracy are inevitably enemies. (p 100) [R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law] Christianity is completely and radically anti-democratic; it is committed to spiritual aristrocracy. [R.J. Rushdoony, Reconstructionist theologian, from _The Religious Right: The Assault on Tolerance and Pluralism In America_, published by ADL] - the priestking caste I mentioned earlier. The significance of Jesus Christ as the “faithful and true witness” is that He not only witnesses against those who are at war against God, but He also executes them. - R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 574. So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God. - Gary North, “The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right” in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25. We believe that institutionally Christianity should be the official religion of the country, that its laws should be specifically Christian. - Rev. David Chilton, Church of the Redeemer, Placerville, CA. The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church’s public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel. - Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 87. Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ - to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less. If Jesus Christ is indeed Lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to His Lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our stewardship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose. Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land - of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations. True Christian political action seeks to rein the passions of men and curb the pattern of digression under God’s rule. - George Grant, The Changing of the Guard (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1987), pp. 50-51. Finally, my personal favorite… **"Every good Christian ought to kick Falwell’s ass." – Barry Goldwater** ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/116 "2005-06-03T18:11:11Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > > [@Evil One](#): > > > > You’re reaching, Lute. You know exactly what I meant. > > You said “any”. Not all terrorists come from other countries, you know. Let me amend this. Not all terroist acts result in stewn body parts. Under the Patriot Act, [Broomstick’s vandilzed airport](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315491&highlight=airport) is a terrorist act. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/117 "2005-06-03T18:47:07Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > All they needed was a “Pearl Harbor”. I bet they all creamed their pants when they saw those poor people jumping from the Trade Center. May these “great leaders” rot in hell. This has got to be the stupidest, most ignorant thing I’ve heard this year. Do you really believe that the Bush Administration was hoping that someone would orchestrate an attack on American soil that would kill thousands of innocents? Be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/118 "2005-06-03T19:43:51Z")
**Lord Ashtar** : This suspicion can be traced back to a discussion found in a PNAC report entitled “Rebuilding America’s Defenses.” This paper is openly dedicated to the proposition that the US is the dominant world power, and that it should pursue policies to ensure that it remains so: > [@](#): > > Over the decade of the post-Cold-War period, however, almost everything has changed. The Cold War world was a bipolar world; the 21st century world is – for the moment, at least – decidedly unipolar, with America as the world’s “sole superpower.” America’s strategic goal used to be containment of the Soviet Union; _ **today the task is to preserve an international security environment conducive to American interests and ideals.** _ The military’s job during the Cold War was to deter Soviet expansionism. Today its task is to secure and expand the “zones of democratic peace;” _ **to deter the rise of a new great power competitor** _; defend key regions of Europe, East Asia and the Middle East; and _ **to preserve American pre-eminence through the coming transformation of war made possible by new technologies** _. From 1945 to 1990, U.S. forces prepared themselves for a single, global war that might be fought across many theaters; in the new century, the prospect is for a variety of theater wars around the world, against separate and distinct adversaries pursuing separate and distinct goals. During the Cold War, the main venue of superpower rivalry, the strategic “center of gravity,” was in Europe, where large U.S. and NATO conventional forces prepared to repulse a Soviet attack and over which nuclear war might begin; and with Europe now generally at peace, the new strategic center of concern appears to be shifting to East Asia. The missions for America’s armed forces have not diminished so much as shifted. The threats may not be as great, but there are more of them. During the Cold War, America acquired its security “wholesale” by global deterrence of the Soviet Union. Today, that same security can only be acquired at the “retail” level, by deterring or, when needed, by compelling regional foes to act in ways that protect American interests and principles. > > – _Rebuilding America’s Defenses, 2-3._ I’ve bolded the formulations that I find worrisome. With regard to you question, however, if we continue reading, we find the following passage, in the Chapter entitled **“Creating Tomorrow’s Dominant Force”** : > [@](#): > > To preserve American military pr-eminence in the coming decades, the Department of Defense must move more aggressively to experiment with new technologies and operational concepts, and seek to exploit the emerging revolution in military affairs…. > > The United States enjoys every prospect of leading this transformation. Indeed, it was the improvements in capabilities acquired during the American defense buildup of the 1980s that hinted at and then confirmed, during Operation Desert Storm, that a revolution in military affairs was at hand…. > > Any serious effort at transformation must occur within the larger framework of U.S. national security strategy, military missions and defense budgets. The United States cannot simply declare a “strategic pause” while experimenting with new technologies and operational concepts…. > > _ **Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions.** _ > _– RAD, 50 -51._ This may have simply been unfortunate phrasing on the author’s part, but has anyway led many war opponents to suspect that there are at least some hardliners within our government who welcomed a “Pearl Harbor-like” catastrophe as a catalyst for furthering their plans. After all, the article is a product of PNAC (Project for the New American Century), a sort of neo-con clearing house, and the paper’s “co-chairmen” are prominent neo-con thinkers. (You can find the entire paper linked as a .pdf file at the bottom of [this page](http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm).) This impression is not helped by the fact that we know Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld began to press for action against Iraq immediately after 9/11, despite the absence of evidence link Iraq to the attack. Neo-cons had been advocating an invasion for years before the towers fell. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/119 "2005-06-03T19:50:46Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not all terroist acts result in **stewn body parts**. “Stewn” body parts is what may have happened to the prisoners that the US has “rendered” (no pun intended) to other countries: > [@](#): > > He said he knew of “at least three” instances where the U.S. had rendered suspected militants from Afghanistan to Uzbekistan. Although Murray does not know the fate of the three men, he said, “They almost certainly would have been tortured.” In Uzbekistan, he said, **“partial boiling of a hand or an arm is quite common.”** He also knew of two cases in which prisoners had been boiled to death. [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050214fa\_fact6](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050214fa_fact6) ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-has-our-righties-in-a-lather-of-late/306630/120 "2005-06-03T19:54:01Z")
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