# What I'd like to see if universal healthcare is implemented **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360 "2009-07-26T22:40:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/61 "2009-07-27T18:56:33Z")
I’ve already stated in this thread that I used to smoke and I occasionally eat junk food. I very seldomly drink anymore. But I really don’t think whether or not I like something is relevant. I like junk food occasionally, but I want it out of schools completely. I like alcohol occasionally but for god’s sake I don’t want 11 year olds to be able to buy it. And if you’re asking me why I don’t consider higher alcohol and junk food taxes, well, come to think of it I’m not completely closed to the idea. I’d have to think about it some more. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/62 "2009-07-27T19:05:50Z")
If I dislike getting stabbed in the throat with a fire poker, and think people shouldn’t do that, and I like planting trees and think people _should_ do that, does that make those things invalid because the list is personally biased? I don’t think so. There is practical objectivity in society. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/63 "2009-07-27T19:07:30Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yes, I see what you’re getting at. Ignore all good, practical suggestions for handling the impending trainwreck between being one of the most unhealthy modern nations and paying for each other’s healthcare, because it’s ultimately fascist. > > P.E. class and nutritious lunches are _exactly_ like government labor camps :rolleyes:. I wasn’t really kidding. I think they should ban sodas. It’s garbage. Especially with poor people paying for sugar water with food stamps. Then getting obese and getting diabetes. I’m exaggerating a little bit. I’ve often wondered why they don’t make food stamp people eat only nutritious food…thus my gruel suggesstion. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/64 "2009-07-27T19:10:04Z")
What’s up with “no fast food”. I go to burger king sometimes and get a couple whoppers…hold the sauce and mayo. It’s just a hamburger with lettuce and tomato on it. It’s not unhealthy at all…well unless you think meat is unhealthy. French fries may be somewhat unhealthy and the soda is obviously garbage. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/65 "2009-07-27T19:28:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > If I dislike getting stabbed in the throat with a fire poker, and think people shouldn’t do that, and I like planting trees and think people _should_ do that, does that make those things invalid because the list is personally biased? I don’t think so. There is practical objectivity in society. Sure. But you have no hesitation at banning smoking (which you dislike) yet balk at taxing booze and junk food (which you, along with most of us, like), despite them causing equal or larger healthcare costs. That’s the bias. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/66 "2009-07-27T19:38:42Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > But you have no hesitation at banning smoking I don’t? > [@athelas](#): > > yet balk at taxing booze and junk food I do? Maybe you should start over and read the thread again. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/67 "2009-07-27T19:45:46Z")
Everyone’s missing the elephant in the room. If the problem is that once you have socialized medicine it’s not fair to make some people pay more than their share, then the first reform that’s needed is to move more of the tax burden onto the poor and middle class. Even if a middle class person is extremely healthy, he’s more of a financial burden on the system than a rich fat guy, because the rich fat guy is putting more of his own cash into the system in the first place. So… No universal health care unless an equitable share of the cost is borne by the lower and middle classes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/68 "2009-07-27T20:17:39Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Fortunately, you don’t have to. He can make whatever decision he wants, and then live with the consequences. No, we live with the consequences also. Maybe those people on the block were stupid in getting bad mortgages, and you were smart in not falling for it, but your property values still fall when their vacant houses become weed infested eyesores. > [@](#): > > You’ve already shown your true colors back in the ‘Libertarian/fringe’ thread, Mr. Voyager. Back then, you were too confused and frightened by mortgage terms to make a decision on your own. You wanted the government to come in and put a stamp of approval on it. And by your own words, ‘How did that work out?’ Moi? I can and have done it on my own, but I got 800s in both the Math SAT and the Math Achievement tests. Car dealers hate me because I can compute the actual costs of various financing plans in my head and can show them that the one they are pushing is a ripoff. If everyone were like me, your plan would be fine. The difference between us is that I’m aware that not everyone is a genius, and don’t think people who’d have trouble coming up with the right answers themselves deserve either scorn or bankruptcy. > [@](#): > > So in other words, the more important the decision is to you…an expensive mortgage, life-saving (or threatening) treatment, etc. the more you want someone else to make the decision for you. You’re terrified of the responsibility of having to make your own decisions, and then live with the consequences of that decision. My guess is you don’t even realize this. 15 year mortgage, 30 year mortgage - fine. The restrictions we need are keeping unscrupulous brokers from selling stuff they know the borrower can’t afford. And you’re against this why? Perhaps because you think the riff raff who’d fall for it deserve the results? > [@](#): > > As a follow up to the ‘Libertarian/fringe’ thread, in Sam Stone’s FDA thread, you also wouldn’t even sign up for voluntary FDA participation…even leaving yourself the right to select a non-FDA approved drug for yourself if you wanted. You didn’t even want that option. You wanted somebody to dictate to you 100% of the time what you are allowed to ingest, and what you are not allowed to. Don’t you think it’s a might bit arrogant to say that with two weeks of research you know more than a panel of experts, who have studied medicine in school for a good 8 years, and who have decades of experience, and who work on it full time? Even I’m not that arrogant. I’d guess that you don’t know anything very well, but those of us who have studied in a field for a long time know what knowing something feels like, and we know when we don’t know something, as is the case for drugs. You’re like some kid who rides an inner tube around a cove and is then convinced he’s ready for an around-the-world sailing trip. Your little rant didn’t address how not paying for treatments shown to be ineffective reduces our freedom - except the freedom to have the lack of knowledge of a lot of the population taken advantage of. BTW, IIRC the last FDA discussion ended with both Sam and I agreeing that there was a tradeoff between the risk of a bad drug getting out and the risk of delaying a good drug for extra testing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/69 "2009-07-27T20:26:56Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Alcohol is a social custom and has proven health benefits in moderate amounts. I already listed some “positives” of junk food. What are the positives of tobacco? > > And yes, there has to be practicality. I don’t want to ban anything. I just don’t think schools should be actively feeding kids junk as much as they do. If parents are going to make the wrong choices for their kids after school anyway, well, we can’t control everything, can we? > > A lot of you are trying to frame this as an idealistic and somewhat extremist argument. I’m trying to be practical. I know we can’t force people to be healthy, and I wouldn’t want to. But that doesn’t mean we should throw our hands in the air and say we can’t do shit, let’s serve beef and bacon burritos and Code Red Mountain Dew every day because that’s what the kids want. That’s bullshit. Since I was a kid taxes, warning labels, banning smoking in restaurants, and social pressure had cut down tobacco use a lot. I came across some matchbooks the other day, and realized that you hardly see any of these things any more. Slightly higher taxes, advertising campaigns, and labeling junk food with calorie counts will probably do the job just fine. But aside from that, there is absolutely no reason to let it into the schools, any more than you need to show soap operas in class. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/70 "2009-07-27T20:49:15Z")
I went to a rock concert a couple weeks ago with my brother. At one point they played a slow song and the lead singer said “alright, everybody get those lighters up!” In a ~3,000 seat arena I swear to you there was not more than 150 lighters or so. And this was a sold-out house with a very enthusiastic crowd. My brother leaned into my ear and commented, “10 years ago this place would’ve been lit up like a Christmas tree.” ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/71 "2009-07-30T03:29:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Since I was a kid taxes, warning labels, banning smoking in restaurants, and social pressure had cut down tobacco use a lot. I came across some matchbooks the other day, and realized that you hardly see any of these things any more. Slightly higher taxes, advertising campaigns, and labeling junk food with calorie counts will probably do the job just fine. But aside from that, there is absolutely no reason to let it into the schools, any more than you need to show soap operas in class. Are you going to try and stop kids bringing it from home? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/72 "2009-07-30T03:35:33Z")
> [@Xan](#): > > Are you going to try and stop kids bringing it from home? This strawman has gotten far too much mileage in this thread. Do you not see the difference between home (hint: private) and school (hint: public)? ---
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360/73 "2009-07-30T03:37:46Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This strawman has gotten far too much mileage in this thread. > > Do you not see the difference between home (hint: private) and school (hint: public)? I misunderstood you. I wasn’t sure if you meant just stop serving it stopping it from getting in at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-id-like-to-see-if-universal-healthcare-is-implemented/504360.md?page=3)