# What if a Democratic candidate came out against undocumented immigration for economic reasons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869 "2019-07-30T13:34:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/41 "2019-08-01T20:20:01Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > 1 reason is that they get to keep approximately 15% of their paycheck instead of giving it to Uncle Sam (possibly up to 28% if paid in cash) > > But the second would be that they have no significant skill to offer other than general labor, and/or they do not speak fluent English. > > . Huh? Your math makes no sense. Illegals are paid by W2 with withholding, and paid the same as anyone else doing that job. The IRS- not the INS- enforces that, and they will take the businesses bank account and padlock the doors if they dont. No one wishes to risk the IRS. I worked a project with Farm laborers. About half were illegals, all were hispanic, even tho a couple were born here. They had a excellent job skill, one highly in demand- farm laborer, a skill few Anglos have or want to have. Many are paid by the lot and earn very good money during the season. They work very fast and efficient. Quite a few speak English. Some work as independents doing gardening work, some do maid and cleaning, some work for construction, and in fact they are the backbone of construction work out here. You see a few Anglos doing supervision and detail work, like electrical, but most are hispanic and many are illegal- and they get paid the same. (The supervisors, electricians and plumbers make more, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/42 "2019-08-01T20:27:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why do you think they work for cheap? Because the going rate for the kind of jobs they can get in the US is more than the going rate for the jobs they can get in their home country. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/43 "2019-08-01T20:37:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Illegals are paid by W2 with withholding, and paid the same as anyone else doing that job. [Zoe Baird, Kimba Wood,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nannygate_(disambiguation)) and [Mike Mulvaney](https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-nannygate-mulvaney-trump-cabinet-edit-0131-jm-20170130-story.html) beg to differ. > [@](#): > > This survey of New York City restaurant workers finds that 59 percent have experienced overtime wage violations, 57 percent have worked more than four hours straight without a paid break, and 13 percent have experienced minimum wage violations. [Cite](https://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2248&context=articles). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/44 "2019-08-01T23:04:24Z")
Last time I checked, there’s nothing illegal about requesting asylum, or at least, there never WAS, up until now. Provided you’re not attempting to sneak into the country. I think you can be against illegal immigration or open borders and also be against building a great big wall. Wanting to control the flow of illegal immigration and not wanting open borders doesn’t make a person racist, in my view, it means recognizing that sadly, we don’t have the resources to take care of everyone who wants in. ☹ > [@puddleglum](#): > > “Encourage stability in their home countries”? Short of invading their countries and installing a new government there is no way to do this. We have been trying to stabilize Latin America with varying degrees of success since ww2. If, by “encourage stability” you mean overthrow democratically elected regimes in favor of dictatorships at the encouragement of the United Fruit Company" then yeah, I’d say we were successful. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/45 "2019-08-02T01:03:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Zoe Baird, Kimba Wood,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nannygate_(disambiguation)) and [Mike Mulvaney](https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-nannygate-mulvaney-trump-cabinet-edit-0131-jm-20170130-story.html) beg to differ. [Cite](https://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2248&context=articles). Nannygate was in 1993. And that last named didnt hire a illegal. And that just proves my point. Those workers were getting paid by W2, had withholding and the same pay as the others. Yes, they often choose not to make waves. So? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/46 "2019-08-02T03:14:56Z")
Forget economic reasons. Point out all the problems with overcrowding and homelessness we have now and ask how allowing in another million illegals will make that better or worse? Does the US have to have the population density of Japan? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/47 "2019-08-02T04:59:25Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Forget economic reasons. Point out all the problems with overcrowding and homelessness we have now and ask how allowing in another million illegals will make that better or worse? Does the US have to have the population density of Japan? The USA is far from overcrowded. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/48 "2019-08-02T14:59:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The USA is far from overcrowded. Tell that to all the people in Los Angeles. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/49 "2019-08-02T15:05:51Z")
I drove from The south Chicago suburbs to Indianapolis recently, and boy Oh boy is America overcrowded! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/50 "2019-08-02T17:14:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Tell that to all the people in Los Angeles. LA is not the USA. LA has many people there because there are many things to attract residents there. It is not because the USA is out of room. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/51 "2019-08-03T19:29:13Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I drove from The south Chicago suburbs to Indianapolis recently, and boy Oh boy is America overcrowded! :rolleyes: Heck yes. While your untrained eyes sees “empty” land and think why not slap 100,000 immigrants on it, my eyes see valuable farmland. Notice that land has limited water systems, sewers, few schools, fire/police protection, or many other services besides, where will they find jobs? Let me say it again, we do NOT need to be as crowded as other countries. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/52 "2019-08-03T19:40:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Heck yes. While your untrained eyes sees “empty” land and think why not slap 100,000 immigrants on it, my eyes see valuable farmland. It takes training to see farmland? Well, I suppose so, since much of that farmland is sitting idle collecting subsidies, it would take a trained eye to see the cash flowing from the taxpayer pocket rather than just an empty field. Why is it just immigrants? I live in a quickly developing area, and the developers see farm fields and think why not slap 100,000 people on to it, they do not care if they are immigrant or native born. > [@](#): > > Notice that land has limited water systems, sewers, few schools, fire/police protection, or many other services besides, where will they find jobs? The same place that the last few hundred million people found jobs that didn’t exist a few decades back. More people is more productivity and it is more demand. More people is a better economy. But, as long as you are asking, I’ll take a few. > [@](#): > > Let me say it again, we do NOT need to be as crowded as other countries. What other countries are you worried about, and how far are we from that? We started at 4.5 people in a square mile, now we are pushing 90 per. What is the maximum crowding that you think that we can handle? Keep in mind that most of these people are moving to where there are already people. The empty places are empty for good reason, no one wants to live there. So those empty places, those farms that you are so concerned about, those wide open empty fields, they are in no danger from immigration. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/53 "2019-08-03T23:49:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It takes training to see farmland? > > Well, I suppose so, since much of that farmland is sitting idle collecting subsidies, it would take a trained eye to see the cash flowing from the taxpayer pocket rather than just an empty field. > > Why is it just immigrants? I live in a quickly developing area, and the developers see farm fields and think why not slap 100,000 people on to it, they do not care if they are immigrant or native born. > > The same place that the last few hundred million people found jobs that didn’t exist a few decades back. More people is more productivity and it is more demand. More people is a better economy. > > But, as long as you are asking, I’ll take a few. > What other countries are you worried about, and how far are we from that? We started at 4.5 people in a square mile, now we are pushing 90 per. What is the maximum crowding that you think that we can handle? > > Keep in mind that most of these people are moving to where there are already people. The empty places are empty for good reason, no one wants to live there. So those empty places, those farms that you are so concerned about, those wide open empty fields, they are in no danger from immigration. It’s more productivity if the people coming are productive. Why aren’t they productive where they are and should there be some controls or is de-facto open borders the goal? And at some point density, especially in highly desirable areas does become too great. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/54 "2019-08-06T15:19:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s more productivity if the people coming are productive. Yeah, what reason do you think otherwise? > [@](#): > > Why aren’t they productive where they are Why are the people of Glasgow, Kentucky not productive where they are? > [@](#): > > and should there be some controls Sure > [@](#): > > or is de-facto open borders the goal? Nope > [@](#): > > And at some point density, especially in highly desirable areas does become too great. Yeah, that’s how black holes form. Can you tell me what, specifically, density is “too great”? Is that something for you to decide, or is that something for the person looking to live in a highly desirable area to decide? Does it matter to you how densely populated an area that you do not live in is? Now, I thought about mentioning that you have no proposals to build a wall around Kentucky, even though economic immigrants are leaving there for other places, causing all the same “problems” that you claim that immigrants from outside the country will cause, but I realize that you guys do put up walls. There are highly desirable areas to live, places where a person from poor kentucky could get a good paying job, but they are shut out by those who want the benefits of living near a high population density area, without having to actually live near other people, especially not poor people. If you are trying to make a comment about places like San Francisco being overcrowded because there are not enough homes for the people who would like to live there, then your comment is misguided, as it is not that it is overcrowded, but that there are those who fight against it increasing in density to the point where the people who want to live there can live there. You don’t need to worry about your big open places that no one wants to live. Even if immigration increased tenfold, people would still not want to live in those places. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869/55 "2019-08-07T21:46:16Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > At the same time, this Democrat would convincingly reject the wall, the caging of kids and other such performative cruelty, and white-nationalist bigotry. You mean someone further left than Obama? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-democratic-candidate-came-out-against-undocumented-immigration-for-economic-reasons/837869.md?page=2)