# What if a full body burka was adopted by a large US minority?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 30, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370 "2010-03-30T19:33:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/41 "2010-03-31T15:59:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Nope. Clothes are what we wear to keep us warm. You know: food, shelter, clothing. Anything that is an excess of that is open for discussion.
+1
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/42 "2010-03-31T16:15:49Z")
Burkas disgust me. Covering the face is one of the most dehumanizing things you can do to a person, and the fact that this is only done to females tells me that this is exactly what it’s meant to do (I don’t care if they do it “voluntarily”; they’re raised to be ok with it and they know they can’t fight it.)
I don’t ever see a significant portion of any non-theocratic population wearing burkas all the time, so I don’t really know how to answer the OP, but I agree that it would indeed be a nightmare scenario.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/43 "2010-03-31T17:05:29Z")
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> I’m a bit shocked at this nonchalant attitude. So, if the US becomes a place where you look out your window and see everyone in full body and face cover, you go to the mall and you see everyone in full body and face cover, you go to the local restaurant and you see everyone in full body and face cover, etc, and your only reaction is “I can just stay home”? Personally, I’d get the fuck out of the country (assuming of course other countries haven’t fallen for this new “fad”)
Yeah, that’s my only reaction, because I’ve actually _done_ this before. You want scary? Body peircings and freakish punk hairstyles. Earrings on men - oh noes!
If this sounds dumb…why? What’s objectively less scary about self-deformation than covering the face? What is there about somebody covering their face that makes them so terrifying that you need to uproot your entire life and flee screaming?
Seriously, that’s absurd. It’s like the people saying that they’d flee the country if a politician they don’t like gets elected - all hyperbole. In reality, if you’re terrified of your countrymen, what do you do? You hunker down behind walls, possibly peeking between the curtains now and than to see wether they’re surrounding your castle or not. Possibly while cocking your shotgun, if you’ve got one.
Well, I don’t know about you, but to my surprise I find myself still able to go outdoors despite seeing people all over the place who make me queasy looking at what they’ve done to themselves. The terror just isn’t there. And I don’t think it would be if everyone wore tarps either. But if it _was_, I’d hide at home, not wreck my life fleeing.
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> 1. I’m glad the laws are more in line with my views on this subject than with the majority of respondents in this thread.
Who in this thread has said that businesses and public buildings shouldn’t be able to require people to expose their faces on their own property?
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/44 "2010-03-31T17:28:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> What’s objectively less scary about self-deformation than covering the face?
Faces are how we recognize each other. They’re how we see our fellow human beings. When you think of Richard Nixon, you don’t think of his wrists. You think of his jowls and that big-ass nose. What part of our dead heroes goes on stamps and coins? The face. What goes on your driver’s license? Your face. In film and television, what is a “closeup” a closeup of? To cover your ass when someone doesn’t give their permission to be seen on film, what is the only part of their body you blur out? Take away their face and they’re gone. I could go on and on (and on and on) but hopefully you get the picture.
Also, Japanese folklore is full of demons without faces, and they’re terrifying.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/45 "2010-03-31T17:34:05Z")
Look: [People](http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w268/metal_head_1989/Michael_Myers.gif) [without](http://marathonmemoirs.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jason_voorhees12.jpg) [faces](http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/247000/247266_1247289712062_full.jpg).
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/46 "2010-03-31T17:35:37Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> Faces are how we recognize each other. They’re how we see our fellow human beings. When you think of Richard Nixon, you don’t think of his wrists. You think of his jowls and that big-ass nose. What part of our dead heroes goes on stamps and coins? The face. What goes on your driver’s license? Your face. In film and television, what is a “closeup” a closeup of? To cover your ass when someone doesn’t give their permission to be seen on film, what is the only part of their body you blur out? Take away their face and they’re gone. I could go on and on (and on and on) but hopefully you get the picture.
This thread is about 100% of the population being covered. You don’t recognize most of these people _anyway_ - you don’t know everyone on they planet, do you? So logically you must _currently_ be too scared to leave the house, right?
Sorry, no. I freely concede that being surrounded by masked people can be scary - halloween makes me crap my pants with terror every year, with all people in costume! (Oh wait, no it doesn’t. But maybe it does for you.) But just 'cause they’re somewhat scary doesn’t mean that other fads in self-presentation aren’t scary too, allowing me to develop an information base on how a person might react to such things. And “flee the coutry” simply isn’t on the list.
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> Also, Japanese folklore is full of demons without faces, and they’re terrifying.
You should see the ones with fifteen foot necks.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/47 "2010-03-31T17:39:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> This thread is about 100% of the population being covered. You don’t recognize most of these people _anyway_ - you don’t know everyone on they planet, do you? So logically you must _currently_ be too scared to leave the house, right?
Uh, what?
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Sorry, no. I freely concede that being surrounded by masked people can be scary - halloween makes me crap my pants with terror every year, with all people in costume! (Oh wait, no it doesn’t. But maybe it does for you.) But just 'cause they’re somewhat scary doesn’t mean that other fads in self-presentation aren’t scary too, allowing me to develop an information base on how a person might react to such things. And “flee the coutry” simply isn’t on the list.
Dehumanization is scary. The context in which the hiding of women from society happens is scary.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/48 "2010-03-31T17:40:33Z")
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> [ul]
> [li]Would you be OK with that?[/li][li]Would the law/government be OK with that?[/li][/ul]
I do find the practice isolating for people, both for men and women, and IMHO not how we are suppose to be and (again IMHO) damaging to the human spirit, but it is their choice which has to be respected and allowed to run it’s course. As for the gov’t they IMHO should have no input on it except in cases where they have been given authority over, such as security and identity.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/49 "2010-03-31T17:42:56Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> Uh, what?
Your argument was that being unable to recognize people makes them scary, right? I fail to recognize people all the time.
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> Dehumanization is scary. The context in which the hiding of women from society happens is scary.
Two _completely_ separate issues, here - the OP rather explicitly says this isn’t about the muslims. This is about a context-free _fad_. Like those scary bastards who grow _giant_ holes in their earlobes - dehumanization if I’ve ever seen it.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/50 "2010-03-31T17:50:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> the OP rather explicitly says this isn’t about the muslims. This is about a context-free _fad_.
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Mormons
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Jesus
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Mormons
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Muslim
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> a large US minority
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> French/Canadians/etc
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> our society
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> Muslim women
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> France and Canada
> [@Polerius](#):
>
> the Muslim minority
Context-free? Could’a fooled me.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/51 "2010-03-31T17:52:43Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> Context-free? Could’a fooled me.
Try not snipping the living hell out of it, and maybe you won’t be fooled.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/52 "2010-03-31T17:55:24Z")
Everything I snipped is context. That’s what context IS.
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### Author:  [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/53 "2010-03-31T17:58:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> I admit it would be freaky if it felt like I was being stalked by ghosts all the time, but if I really feel that way I can just stay home.
Curiously, I would have the opposite reaction. If I saw a growing number of people covering their faces, I would make a point to walk around in public _even more_ showing my face. As a matter of principle – although I freely admit that I haven’t really thought through what the principle is, exactly. It has something to do with maintaining the distinction between the public and private sphere.
While I understand the “workaround” that the burka represents (allowing a woman to maintain a private space while being out in public), I don’t like it – and not just from a women’s rights perspective (although that’s important too). I place great value on my private space and the separation of that from that from the public sphere. I dress differently, act differently, speak differently, etc. in public than I do at home. I like the distinction, and find it more psychologically restful/balanced to have this kind of separation between the two spaces. The burka crosses the line and makes me uncomfortable. Now, you may ask, why is it my business where someone else draws the line?? Yeah, I don’t know.
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/54 "2010-03-31T18:03:59Z")
> [@rivulus](#):
>
> Curiously, I would have the opposite reaction. If I saw a growing number of people covering their faces, I would make a point to walk around in public _even more_ showing my face. As a matter of principle – although I freely admit that I haven’t really thought through what the principle is, exactly. It has something to do with maintaining the distinction between the public and private sphere.
>
> While I understand the “workaround” that the burka represents (allowing a woman to maintain a private space while being out in public), I don’t like it – and not just from a women’s rights perspective (although that’s important too). I place great value on my private space and the separation of that from that from the public sphere. I dress differently, act differently, speak differently, etc. in public than I do at home. I like the distinction, and find it more psychologically restful/balanced to have this kind of separation between the two spaces. The burka crosses the line and makes me uncomfortable. Now, you may ask, why is it my business where someone else draws the line?? Yeah, I don’t know.
Well yeah, I certainly wouldn’t cover my face either just because everyone else is doing it, and I might go out a small amount more just as a raised finger to the stupidity of it all. But I was speaking to the theoretical case where I was _terrified_ by these burkas - where the mere sight of all of them makes me shake in my boots and piss my pants. If I was that scared, then making points be damned, I’d be locked in my house, possibly huddling under my bed cuddling my american-flag blankie.
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### Author:  [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/55 "2010-03-31T18:36:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Well yeah, I certainly wouldn’t cover my face either just because everyone else is doing it, and I might go out a small amount more just as a raised finger to the stupidity of it all. But I was speaking to the theoretical case where I was _terrified_ by these burkas - where the mere sight of all of them makes me shake in my boots and piss my pants. If I was that scared, then making points be damned, I’d be locked in my house, possibly huddling under my bed cuddling my american-flag blankie.
Or you could join a militia. 😉
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### Author:  [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/56 "2010-03-31T19:06:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Nope. Clothes are what we wear to keep us warm. You know: food, shelter, clothing. Anything that is an excess of that is open for discussion. When you don something for affectation, society has the right to judge it and put limits on it. And we have the right to have people walk around so that they can be recognized, and can easily be held accountable for their actions. That is the U.S., anyway. If you don’t like it, there’s always places like Saudi Arabia. Pack you stuff and good riddance.
Wrong. With the exception of indecent exposure laws, people can dress however they like in the US. If you don’t like it, I bet you’ll love France.
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### Author:  [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/57 "2010-03-31T19:10:14Z")
> [@StusBlues](#):
>
> Wrong. With the exception of indecent exposure laws, people can dress however they like in the US. If you don’t like it, I bet you’ll love France.
So there aren’t laws prohibiting the wearing of masks in various states? That’s a surprise to me.
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### Author:  [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/58 "2010-03-31T19:12:27Z")
> [@villa](#):
>
> So there aren’t laws prohibiting the wearing of masks in various states? That’s a surprise to me.
Well, I wore a mask outside for the bulk of the winter (because it was so damn cold), and yet I am free.
You’re putting up strawmen by the platoon. Get a grip.
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### Author:  [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/59 "2010-03-31T19:15:10Z")
> [@StusBlues](#):
>
> Well, I wore a mask outside for the bulk of the winter, and yet I am free.
>
> You’re putting up strawmen by the platoon. Get a grip.
Are you honestly telling me the wearing of masks is not criminalized in certain states? That these laws are not universal, and also not always enforced (as welling as having certain other elements, usually I believe including more than one person being there) doesn’t alter the fact that your original comment was incorrect.
It’s an interesting definition of “straw man” you have there. Just as a quick hint, it doesn’t actually mean “factual evidence that demonstrates I am wrong.”
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### Author:  [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)
#### Post date: [March 31, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-a-full-body-burka-was-adopted-by-a-large-us-minority/534370/60 "2010-03-31T19:20:40Z")
> [@villa](#):
>
> Are you honestly telling me the wearing of masks is not criminalized in certain states? That these laws are not universal, and also not always enforced (as welling as having certain other elements, usually I believe including more than one person being there) doesn’t alter the fact that your original comment was incorrect.
>
> It’s an interesting definition of “straw man” you have there. Just as a quick hint, it doesn’t actually mean “factual evidence that demonstrates I am wrong.”
Where are there laws against the wearing of masks in general situations? The only cites I’ve been able to find cover political demonstrations and such. It’s kind of like having to wear shoes and a shirt where food is served. If you’re going to count that, I would say I’m getting more than a whiff of straw.
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