# What if all continents had been in regular communication since ancient times? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053 "2011-04-12T03:22:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/41 "2011-04-16T01:21:59Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Utter and total nonsense. We have incontrovertible proof that agriculture was practiced throughout South America outside the extreme South and the desert regions. It was practiced throughout North America outside those regions of the Great Plains too remote from water, the deserts and the extreme north. > > So please proovdie some evidence for this ludicrous claim that “most people in the Americas were still hunter gatherers”. > > This claim alone puts paid to any possibility that you have done any actual research on this topic. Please, don’t be ridiculous. Wasn’t your tought at school that north American natives hunted? Yes, they have some agriculture but not enough to sustain themselves. Even Aztecs, which had chinanpas, had problems to feed themselves by agriculture alone! ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/42 "2011-04-16T01:25:40Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > By-the-by, Tenochtitlan should in fact have been the largest single site in the pre-Columbian world. I’m certainly not aware of any greater concentration. . According to an exibition I once visited, Chan-Chan, the capital of the Chimu kingdom, was larger than Tenochtitlan. Besides, Teotihuacan was probably larger than Mexico city. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/43 "2011-04-16T02:24:01Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > That, at least, is what you can read in the chronicles of Cabeza de Vaca, when he crossed from Florida to New Mexico… walking. He described a world with a very low population density, and lot of problems to survive for lack of food. No he didn’t. Let’s look at what he actually described from his terrestrial journeys shall we? What he found in Florida: > [@](#): > > We found the houses deserted, the Indians having fled by canoe in the night. **One of the buhíos was big enough to accommodate more than 300 people** ; the others were smaller. Amid some fish nets we found a gold rattle. > > We showed them some corn to see whether they knew what it was, for we had so far come across no sign of any. They indicated they would take us where there was some and led us to their village at the head of the bay close by. > > Keeping these Indians for guides, we proceeded another ten or twelve leagues, to a village of fifteen houses, where we saw a large cornfield ready for harvest > > On the other side, about **200 [Timucuan] Indians** moved toward us. The Governor went to meet them and talked in signs. They gestured so menacingly that we fell upon them and seized five or six, who led us to their houses half a league away. There we found quite a quantity of corn ripe for plucking. > > The village consisted of forty low, small, thatch houses set up in sheltered places for protection from the frequent storms. > > **This province has many cornfields, and houses are scattered over the countryside as at Seville**. So, despite what you claim, Cabeza de Vaca did not find Florida to have a low population density and inhabited by hunter gatherers. Rather he found land with many cornfields and scattered houses comparable to that found in Spain’s most populous region. Small villages comprised of 15-20 houses, which means at least 80 people in each village and more likely over 100 people. Groups of hundreds of warriors were encountered multiple times and meeting halls were constructed to hold 300 people compliment this exactly. He did find some uninhabited areas, in the most swampy and sandy locales he noted that he sometimes had to travel as much as 20 miles between farms, but this was not normal. Nowhere in Florida did he encounter hunter-gatherers. All people living in Florida were farmers. The picture he paints of Florida is in no way compatible with a sparsely populated land of hunter gatherers. So how does his description of the inland match up to your description? > [@](#): > > [in a journey between The Pecos River and Carlsbad (about 60km)] we travelled … through so many different villages of … that my memory gets confused.. [and] **attracted more followers than we could employ or manage [a] Processions of Thousands** > [@](#): > > **The country [along the Rio Grande in New Mexico] is incredibly populous**…. We asked how it happened they did not plant corn. So they would not lose what they planted, was the answer: no rain two years in a row; moles got the seed; must have plenty rain before planting again….[on the Gila River New Mexico] we got to the [Opata] people of permanent houses who had plenty of corn…. They gave us a great quantity of corn, cornmeal, calabashes, beans, and cotton blankets…. **we marched more than 210 miles through continuously inhabited country of such domiciles, where corn and beans remained plentiful** ….[they gave] a special gift to me of five emerald arrowheads…. I asked where they came from. They said from lofty mountains to the north, where **there were towns of great population and great houses**. So once again, Cabeza de Vaca does not describe a region of low population density HGs who had problems with food. In the heart of the New Mexican desert he describes river valleys of continuously inhabited farmland strecthing for hundreds of miles. Far from having difficulty finding food the people are described as being incredibly wealthy and well fed. And these people are regularly trading with people to the North (presumably the Pueblo) who they consider to by populous. Basically Pinguin, it seems that you have never read the works of Cabeza de Vaca. He describes a United States where all the coastal regions and all the interior river valleys are farmland, occupied by people growing corn and living in villages of hundreds. He describes a land where simply by walking for 60 kilometres a party can attract thousands of followers. The actual picture he paints is of a densely populated agricultural land. While he does describe HG tribes they are people of the inland plains and mountains. The people of the valleys and coasts are all farmers and the population density is incredibly high, particularly in the river valleys. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/44 "2011-04-16T02:26:31Z")
Follow his trip inside the continent, please, and call us back. And read the book. Googling you will never get the real picture. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/45 "2011-04-16T02:31:34Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Please, don’t be ridiculous. Wasn’t your tought at school that north American natives hunted? Yes, they have some agriculture but not enough to sustain themselves. No, I was taught at school that North American natives were farmers. i was tuaght that it was the North American natives who taught the pilgrims how to farm successfully in North America. I was taught that the North American natives were such successful farmers that they were not only able to sustain themselves, they were able to sustain the Pilgrims with their crops of squash and beans and maize throughout the winter. IIRC the Pilgrims were so thankful that their is some minor holiday to celebrate this event. That was what I was taught at school. And we are still waiting to see this evidence that you promised us. And we are still waiting for you to tell us what your point is with all this. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/46 "2011-04-16T02:33:45Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Follow his trip inside the continent, please. I just did. You aren’t going to get more “inside the continent” than New Mexico and Arizona. And in those areas he describes river valleys of continuously inhabited farmland stretching for hundreds of miles. Far from having difficulty finding food the people are described as being incredibly wealthy and well fed. And these people are regularly trading with people to the North (presumably the Pueblo) who \*they \*consider to by populous. Of course once again, you haven;t presented any evidence of your own. You claim that only a few small areas of the US were agricultural, yet your own references shows huge agricultural undertakings in all the river valleys of the southwestern deserts. It is quite clear that you have no evidence for your claims and have not even read the sources that you refer to. Nobody who had ever read the works of Cabeza de Vaca could possibly think that he did not find evidence of extensive agricultural undertakings. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/47 "2011-04-16T02:36:42Z")
So, if you read the book, don’t you recall hunger? I wonder if you read too fast. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/48 "2011-04-16T03:06:14Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > So, if you read the book, don’t you recall hunger? I wonder if you read too fast. You didn’t say that he described tiny pockets of people who were hungry HGs. You said that the entire \*world \*he described was one of hunger and HGs living at low population densities. And that is not in any way accurate. The vast majority of the people he described were well fed and prosperous farmers, with the farmland stretching for hundreds of miles. He compared the farmland favourably to the best agricultural land in Spain. And remember, this is a description of the Southern Desert regions of the US. He isn’t describing New York, he is describing Texas, Arizona and New Mexico. And in those regions he describes most of the people he meets as well fed, wealthy farmers with riverine farmland stretching for hundreds of miles and land comparable to the best in Europe. In freakin’ Arizona and New Mexico! European agriculture didn’t manage to do nearly so well in those regions until the dam building of the 20th century. The only way you could possibly suggest that he described a world of hungry HGs is if you have not read the material, or if you have read it and are deliberately misrepresenting it. And we are still waiting to see this evidence that you promised us. And we are still waiting for you to tell us what your point is with all this. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/49 "2011-04-16T03:08:59Z")
Ha ha. You didn’t read the book and are making it up. I actually read it, and the story is quite pathetic. Wealthy farmers? Gimme a break. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/50 "2011-04-16T03:23:02Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Ha ha. You didn’t read the book and are making it up. Ummm, no. I just quoted from the book. Now if you would care to quote where he says that a majority of people he encountered in the US were hungry HGs I would appreciate that. > [@](#): > > Wealthy farmers? Gimme a break. What the hell are you talking about. I just quoted Cabeza de Vaca’s own words where he described these people as wealthy farmers. \*You \*were the one who introduced Cabeza de Vaca to this discussion. \*You \*are the one who said that his accounts were an accurate representation of the population the US. Now that we have established that his accounts portray a densely populated region of wealthy farmers, you want to ignore it. Give us a break. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/51 "2011-04-16T03:26:33Z")
OK. Maybe something is missed in translation. I will find some quotes for you by Cabeza de Vaca, who wrote in my mother tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/52 "2011-04-16T03:40:45Z")
You do that. We’ll be waiting. And remember, we don’t want quotes saying that he met \*some \*hungry HGs. Nobody disputes that. We want quotes to support your claim that _the entire world_ of people he met in the US were hungry HGs. I’ll even allow you to weasel away from that claim. Just provide quotes to show that a \*majority \*of the people he met were hungry HGs. Just 51%. After all, you claimed that _the entire world_ of people he met in the US were hungry HGs, so finding evidence that 51% were so should be easy. Right? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/53 "2011-04-16T16:51:42Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Please, don’t be ridiculous. Wasn’t your tought at school that north American natives hunted? People in America and Europe still hunt today. Is the British Royal Family made of hunter-gatherers? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/54 "2011-04-16T16:57:36Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > According to an exibition I once visited, Chan-Chan, the capital of the Chimu kingdom, was larger than Tenochtitlan. Chan-chan; 50 000 people max (any estimates of \>100 000 people are just ridiculous given the environment) Tenochtitlan: 200 000 people as a low end So no, not really. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/55 "2011-04-17T00:07:39Z")
Don’t you see it? Depending on the expert, the figures of those populations vary, and shake like jelly. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/56 "2011-04-17T00:13:38Z")
Are still waiting for those quotes you promised us. Please hurry, I am holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/57 "2011-04-17T00:15:39Z")
Take it easy. It will take me a month to compile the refference. Take a hollydays. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/58 "2011-04-17T00:27:02Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Take it easy. It will take me a month to compile the refference. Take a hollydays. Maybe you could provide even one quote while you take the month required so that we at least know there is some evidence to support your claims here. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/59 "2011-04-17T00:29:04Z")
Ok, Ok. But I’ll have to find the book in my library. It will take me hours!!! Anyways, I’ll do. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053/60 "2011-04-17T00:52:43Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Ok, Ok. But I’ll have to find the book in my library. It will take me hours!!! No it won’t. There are literally hundreds of copies available online in multiple languages. Unsurprisingly, since a book written in 1550 is slightly out of copyright. [Here is the Porject Gutenburg version](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11071), but there are literally hundreds of others in Spanish and English. > [@](#): > > Anyways, I’ll do I bet you won’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-all-continents-had-been-in-regular-communication-since-ancient-times/578053.md?page=4)