Please, don’t be ridiculous. Wasn’t your tought at school that north American natives hunted? Yes, they have some agriculture but not enough to sustain themselves. Even Aztecs, which had chinanpas, had problems to feed themselves by agriculture alone!
According to an exibition I once visited, Chan-Chan, the capital of the Chimu kingdom, was larger than Tenochtitlan. Besides, Teotihuacan was probably larger than Mexico city.
No he didn’t. Let’s look at what he actually described from his terrestrial journeys shall we?
What he found in Florida:
So, despite what you claim, Cabeza de Vaca did not find Florida to have a low population density and inhabited by hunter gatherers. Rather he found land with many cornfields and scattered houses comparable to that found in Spain’s most populous region. Small villages comprised of 15-20 houses, which means at least 80 people in each village and more likely over 100 people. Groups of hundreds of warriors were encountered multiple times and meeting halls were constructed to hold 300 people compliment this exactly. He did find some uninhabited areas, in the most swampy and sandy locales he noted that he sometimes had to travel as much as 20 miles between farms, but this was not normal. Nowhere in Florida did he encounter hunter-gatherers. All people living in Florida were farmers.
The picture he paints of Florida is in no way compatible with a sparsely populated land of hunter gatherers.
So how does his description of the inland match up to your description?
So once again, Cabeza de Vaca does not describe a region of low population density HGs who had problems with food. In the heart of the New Mexican desert he describes river valleys of continuously inhabited farmland strecthing for hundreds of miles. Far from having difficulty finding food the people are described as being incredibly wealthy and well fed. And these people are regularly trading with people to the North (presumably the Pueblo) who they consider to by populous.
Basically Pinguin, it seems that you have never read the works of Cabeza de Vaca. He describes a United States where all the coastal regions and all the interior river valleys are farmland, occupied by people growing corn and living in villages of hundreds. He describes a land where simply by walking for 60 kilometres a party can attract thousands of followers.
The actual picture he paints is of a densely populated agricultural land. While he does describe HG tribes they are people of the inland plains and mountains. The people of the valleys and coasts are all farmers and the population density is incredibly high, particularly in the river valleys.
Follow his trip inside the continent, please, and call us back. And read the book. Googling you will never get the real picture.
No, I was taught at school that North American natives were farmers. i was tuaght that it was the North American natives who taught the pilgrims how to farm successfully in North America. I was taught that the North American natives were such successful farmers that they were not only able to sustain themselves, they were able to sustain the Pilgrims with their crops of squash and beans and maize throughout the winter. IIRC the Pilgrims were so thankful that their is some minor holiday to celebrate this event.
That was what I was taught at school.
And we are still waiting to see this evidence that you promised us.
And we are still waiting for you to tell us what your point is with all this.
I just did. You aren’t going to get more “inside the continent” than New Mexico and Arizona. And in those areas he describes river valleys of continuously inhabited farmland stretching for hundreds of miles. Far from having difficulty finding food the people are described as being incredibly wealthy and well fed. And these people are regularly trading with people to the North (presumably the Pueblo) who *they *consider to by populous.
Of course once again, you haven;t presented any evidence of your own. You claim that only a few small areas of the US were agricultural, yet your own references shows huge agricultural undertakings in all the river valleys of the southwestern deserts.
It is quite clear that you have no evidence for your claims and have not even read the sources that you refer to. Nobody who had ever read the works of Cabeza de Vaca could possibly think that he did not find evidence of extensive agricultural undertakings.
So, if you read the book, don’t you recall hunger? I wonder if you read too fast.
You didn’t say that he described tiny pockets of people who were hungry HGs. You said that the entire *world *he described was one of hunger and HGs living at low population densities.
And that is not in any way accurate. The vast majority of the people he described were well fed and prosperous farmers, with the farmland stretching for hundreds of miles. He compared the farmland favourably to the best agricultural land in Spain.
And remember, this is a description of the Southern Desert regions of the US. He isn’t describing New York, he is describing Texas, Arizona and New Mexico. And in those regions he describes most of the people he meets as well fed, wealthy farmers with riverine farmland stretching for hundreds of miles and land comparable to the best in Europe.
In freakin’ Arizona and New Mexico! European agriculture didn’t manage to do nearly so well in those regions until the dam building of the 20th century.
The only way you could possibly suggest that he described a world of hungry HGs is if you have not read the material, or if you have read it and are deliberately misrepresenting it.
And we are still waiting to see this evidence that you promised us.
And we are still waiting for you to tell us what your point is with all this.
Ha ha. You didn’t read the book and are making it up.
I actually read it, and the story is quite pathetic. Wealthy farmers? Gimme a break.
Ummm, no. I just quoted from the book. Now if you would care to quote where he says that a majority of people he encountered in the US were hungry HGs I would appreciate that.
What the hell are you talking about. I just quoted Cabeza de Vaca’s own words where he described these people as wealthy farmers.
*You *were the one who introduced Cabeza de Vaca to this discussion. *You *are the one who said that his accounts were an accurate representation of the population the US.
Now that we have established that his accounts portray a densely populated region of wealthy farmers, you want to ignore it.
Give us a break.
OK. Maybe something is missed in translation. I will find some quotes for you by Cabeza de Vaca, who wrote in my mother tongue.
You do that. We’ll be waiting.
And remember, we don’t want quotes saying that he met *some *hungry HGs. Nobody disputes that. We want quotes to support your claim that the entire world of people he met in the US were hungry HGs.
I’ll even allow you to weasel away from that claim. Just provide quotes to show that a *majority *of the people he met were hungry HGs. Just 51%. After all, you claimed that the entire world of people he met in the US were hungry HGs, so finding evidence that 51% were so should be easy.
Right?
People in America and Europe still hunt today. Is the British Royal Family made of hunter-gatherers?
Chan-chan; 50 000 people max (any estimates of >100 000 people are just ridiculous given the environment)
Tenochtitlan: 200 000 people as a low end
So no, not really.
Don’t you see it? Depending on the expert, the figures of those populations vary, and shake like jelly.
Are still waiting for those quotes you promised us. Please hurry, I am holding my breath.
Take it easy. It will take me a month to compile the refference. Take a hollydays.
Maybe you could provide even one quote while you take the month required so that we at least know there is some evidence to support your claims here.
Ok, Ok. But I’ll have to find the book in my library. It will take me hours!!! Anyways, I’ll do.
No it won’t.
There are literally hundreds of copies available online in multiple languages. Unsurprisingly, since a book written in 1550 is slightly out of copyright. Here is the Porject Gutenburg version, but there are literally hundreds of others in Spanish and English.
I bet you won’t.