# What if American REALLY became an empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369 "2009-07-17T18:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/21 "2009-07-17T21:17:24Z")
Pleonast…thank you. That’s exactly the kind of answer I was looking for, and exactly on topic. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/22 "2009-07-17T21:18:33Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > If the US had become an Empire, then I see nationalist causes being pushed more towards the margins, and more of the exception than the rule. > If all the western powers are imperialist countries in this scenario, then the world is pretty much in an ‘imperial lockdown’ with little room for manouver for other ideologies to come and take root. Why? The Communist Manifesto was published in London and carried out in another Western power. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/23 "2009-07-17T21:21:01Z")
Oh and also, nearly all the imperialism had strong roots in the countries they controlled before they took over, Imperialism wasn’t about smash and grab, most of the imperialists empires were created by accident, with a few exceptions. Your scenario wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/24 "2009-07-17T21:56:24Z")
We specifically drew the border in the Mexican-American war to get territory that was sparsely populated. The problem with annexation of all of Mexico, is what do you do with all those Mexicans? Make them citizens, like white men? Make them serfs, like blacks? Run Mexico as a vassal state through existing Mexican institutions? We didn’t have the stomach for that. We took California and Texas and a huge swath of desert and mountain. And then we paid them for it, like a date-rapist leaving $100 on the coffee table. Plus, the South didn’t want to annex Mexico because–get this–slavery was illegal in Mexico. It would have tipped the balance of power decisively against slaveholding. So the parts of Mexico we took we expected to be overrun by white settlers, and the few Mexicans there would either leave or integrate, and the Indians would be dealt with as per usual. The history of American expansion is that our settlers moved west, and whoever controlled that territory was made to transfer that territory to the US. It could happen peacefully, like the Louisiana Purchase, where Napoleon could see that holding Louisiana was futile. Or it could be after a war, like the Mexican-American war. But America WAS imperialist, we just simply integrated our acquisitions into our existing country rather than treating them as colonies, and this was because the existing population was pushed aside. That wouldn’t have been possible in the Caribbean or Mesoamerica or South America. Canada is another story. It seems pretty dang unlikely that the US somehow never managed to annex Canada during our 200+ year history of sharing a border. That’s a head-scratcher. I guess timelines where Britain retains control over Canada happen pretty infrequently. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/25 "2009-07-17T22:28:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why? The Communist Manifesto was published in London and carried out in another Western power. Yes, but the US has a legacy of opposing colonialism, barring a few minor hiccups, and because of this, has a standing more favourable to the oppressed peoples of the world. If it was an empire it would have none of this. As for Communism, that really came into full swing because of the consequences of WWI and the subsequent collapse of the Tsar, I wouldn’t say it wouldn’t of been written, but it would of been harder to ‘get out’ since all major powers were imperialist and colluding with one another to maintain spheres of influence and dominance. The Paris commune was an abberation, not something sustainable. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/26 "2009-07-18T00:33:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > in 1790, the British have declared war on the US (as well as several other nations), fighting mainly from the remains of their colonial possessions in the new world. Unlikely… > [@](#): > > By 1805 all of the remaining French colonial possessions are in US hands, and the US is driving into Mexico and Central and South American, capturing Spanish possessions as we go. A little too soon… > [@](#): > > The US has also built their fleet to such an extent that, at least locally, they have nearly full control of the seas. Ha! Ha! Ha! Impossible. Yeah, from there you’re in fantasy land. Don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/27 "2009-07-18T00:37:50Z")
What about Canada? The US made an attempt at invasion in the War of 1812, and it was pretty sparsely populated. As long as everyone was grabbing wide swaths of land that they didn’t really fully use (see: Louisiana Purchase), I see annexation of Canada as within the realm of the possible. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/28 "2009-07-18T00:56:45Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Its quite possible that WW1 would not have occured in Europe, but in South America. You not only control the Panama Canal , Cape Horn, and the NorthWest Passage. Sure England could have gotten most favoured nation status for the privilige of shorter passage, but your going to have continental powers messing around. > > It probably would be simpler to go on the imperialist march , after the Civil war. And invade Europe proper. It’s just impossible. The USA could never have done such a thing, not at any time in its history from 1776 to today. Even if Europe could be entirely or partially conquered, it couldn’t be held; 200-300 million very angry and very nationalist people aren’t going to be easily subdued. So it just isn’t a very interesting hypothetical. What IS interesting is what would have happened had all the New World been united under a single flag very early on. Imagine a single power two or three times more powerful than the USA. That’s one heck of a superpower. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/29 "2009-07-18T01:04:13Z")
[http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-08.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-08.htm) We now have over 800 military bases in over 100 countries. We are circling the globe with our military might. What do you require take over of the governmental apparatus? We have spies everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/30 "2009-07-18T03:13:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why? The Communist Manifesto was published in London and carried out in another Western power. Russia was an imperialist power but not a Western power. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/31 "2009-07-18T03:15:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Russia was an imperialist power but not a Western power. I was wondering if someone would pick that nit. You’re right, I should’ve said European power. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/32 "2009-07-18T13:53:33Z")
I think that post 1865 the U.S. certainly _could_ have taken over the entire Caribbean. None of the islands are that large or had large populations that would have been difficult to keep down. The real problem though is that at that point in history all the Caribbean islands were controlled be European powers (minus Hati). So any war of conquest in the Caribbean would have involved a larger war that we may not have wanted to fight. Want Jamaica and the Bahamas? You are going to have to deal with fighting England in Canada too. France and Spain would be less able to challenge us outside the Caribbean, but you’d still have to deal with the diplomatic fall out of war with those countries. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/33 "2009-07-18T17:10:25Z")
Granted, my OP was perhaps not a paragon of of understandability…but there seem to be some serious reading comprehension issues as well here. [QUOTE=foolsguinea] Ha! Ha! Ha! Impossible. Yeah, from there you’re in fantasy land. [/QUOTE] No…I was playing a game. I guess this was not clear to many posters, so, again, I will state that the preamble part of the OP was simply me discussion a game I was playing. I wasn’t seriously putting that bit forward as part of the discussion. I thought this was clear, but assumptions are always tenuous. So, to be clear, this was the part of the question I wanted to discuss: > [@](#): > > It got me thinking though. What if the US HAD become a real Imperialistic power. Not the half assed backing into Imperialism and then backing out again thing we did in reality, but an honest to god, bent on conquest, full on European style Imperialistic power? Let’s say that instead of a focus on minimal government and a deliberately small and ineffective military the government with the full support of the people had built the most powerful military possible and had, again with the full support of the people, become aggressively expansionist. > > What COULD such a US have accomplished? Conquest of Central and South America? More rapid expansion west? Canada? A Pacific or Southern Atlantic empire? The keen eyed observer will note that I don’t actually mention invasions of the British Isles or France or really anywhere in the new world in this section. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/34 "2009-07-18T19:24:43Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > I think that post 1865 the U.S. certainly _could_ have taken over the entire Caribbean. And the [Knights of the Golden Circle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle) were angling for just that before the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/35 "2009-07-19T14:33:01Z")
You have to remember that slavery was one of the issues that prevented maximialist imperial ambitions. All the bigwigs might be in favor of annexing anything they could get their hands on. But the problem was that southern bigwigs only wanted conquest of areas where slavery would be legal, and northern bigwigs only wanted conquest of areas where slavery would be illegal. So it’s one thing to annex Cuba. But would Cuba become a slave territory or a free territory? And if it’s going to be the wrong kind of territory we have powerful entrenched interests against the annexation of Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/36 "2009-07-19T21:31:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You have to remember that slavery was one of the issues that prevented maximialist imperial ambitions. > > All the bigwigs might be in favor of annexing anything they could get their hands on. But the problem was that southern bigwigs only wanted conquest of areas where slavery would be legal, and northern bigwigs only wanted conquest of areas where slavery would be illegal. > > So it’s one thing to annex Cuba. But would Cuba become a slave territory or a free territory? And if it’s going to be the wrong kind of territory we have powerful entrenched interests against the annexation of Cuba. Seems sort of ironic that slavery kept us from subjugating whole peoples no? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/37 "2009-07-20T04:40:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …It’s 1825 and…the game is over. The US has been victorious and has managed to capture all of the 25 provinces they were required to for victory. 😉 Ok…this is essentially the walk through for my latest campaign in Total War: Empire. > … Well, Ill withhold my advice on holding up in South America to build your armies then bursting north to get Kamchatca and Greenland. I knew this had to be some game or other. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/38 "2009-07-22T14:52:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Annexing territory is utterly irrelevant to Empire. So yes, this is the crux of our disagreement. To me excercising dominance over a vassal state is Imperial. As evidenced by Rome in countless ways throughout its history from a city state to empire. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369/39 "2009-07-22T15:10:25Z")
If the Amerikan Empire had come about, it would be terrifying. Just think, they’d have invaded Mexiko and seized large tracts of their most valuable territory, rich in farmland and natural resources, impoverishing that country’s people. The Amerikan Empire might even have tried to invade Kanada! Just think, no one would be safe if the Amerikan Empire had really existed. Korea, Viet Nam, Japan, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Panama, Dominican Republic, and Haiti might all have been directly attacked. And of course, an aggressive and war-like Amerikan Empire would surely have been responsible for more subtle forms of aggression also, such as providing financial and military support and death squad training to similar-minded oppressive regimes in places like El Salvador, Venezuela, Guatemala, Colombia, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Iran. Of course, an Amerikan Empire would never tolerate dissent in its own ranks, so there would have been witch-hunts for people professing different ideologies, mass deportations, and the use of military and para-military forces against organized labour and protest groups. There would be a gargantuan intelligence network keeping tabs on the actions of its own people, monitoring communications with little or no oversight. As an oppressive military-industrial police State, the sheer scale of its military and intelligence operations would bankrupt the nation, resulting in a crumbling infrastructure, a decaying and inadequate educational system, and poverty and desperation on such a scale that the only way to deal with it would be to make prisons turn a profit and build as many as possible. Good thing it never happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-american-really-became-an-empire/503369.md?page=1)