# What, if anything, should be done for those who couldn't buy health care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316 "2013-12-02T22:43:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/21 "2013-12-04T01:15:32Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > What I said was there are millions whose plans have been dropped, and that some have been unable to buy new insurance plans. How many that is, I don’t know. (And those running the show probably aren’t very eager for us to find out.) In your estimation, does my fiancee, who received a letter informing her that her plan was going to be changed to one that was ACA-approved, count as one of the millions whose plan has been canceled? In my opinion she does not, which is why I am protesting your claim of millions with insurance cancelled. There is certainly a definition under which you could include her, but I don’t think it’s a very productive one. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/22 "2013-12-04T07:44:17Z")
A large number of those who can’t get new insurance are in Red states, which, each and every one, has refused the (Federally-funded) Medicaid expansion. At least some of the affected would have been eligible for the expanded Medicaid. So yes, the 'pubbies can be credited with some of those screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/23 "2013-12-04T12:08:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > some of these people will, on Jan. 1, become uninsured through no fault of their own. What, if anything, should be done for these people? nothing, we still have emergency rooms, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/24 "2013-12-04T15:09:09Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > A large number of those who can’t get new insurance are in Red states, which, each and every one, has refused the (Federally-funded) Medicaid expansion. Not so, Kentucky, Indiana, Arkansas, West Virginia, North Dakota, and Arizona are expanding Medicaid. Tennessee is still debating it. Also, note that it’s only fully federally funded for three years. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/25 "2013-12-04T15:40:08Z")
The state exchanges are doing great. The federal website problems have been sufficiently resolved, and by the deadline that Obama set at the beginning of November. Here’s the evaluation of the site from Consumer Reports: > [@](#): > > After advising consumers to steer clear of [Healthcare.gov](http://Healthcare.gov) in October, Consumer Reports health care expert Nancy Metcalf told MSNBC’s Chuck Todd Tuesday morning that the federal health care exchange website was improved enough following the Obama administration’s frantic month of repairs that users could confidently use it. […] > > **“Now we’re saying, ‘it’s time,’”** Metcalf said, in particular praising the new window-shopping function, in which users can peruse health plans without registering with the site. The requirement to make an account before viewing options was considered one of the main causes for the site’s initial traffic bottleneck. **“It’s terrific, I’ve tried it, it was working yesterday through the busiest times,”** Metcalf said. (bolding is mine) from: [Consumer Reports on healthcare site: 'It's terrific'](http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/consumer-reports-backs-health-care-site) As Paul Krugman has said, now that opponents of the ACA will no longer be able to throw a fit about the website, they are going to become more and more agitated and will engage in greater levels of dissembling. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/26 "2013-12-04T15:57:22Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Ay, there’s the rub. Let’s imagine a person–we’ll call her [Sue Klinkhamer](http://www.suntimes.com/news/marin/23352031-452/obamacare-jacks-up-her-insurance.html)–who previous paid $291 a month for insurance. Because of the ACA, that plan got cancelled and the cost of a similar plan would now be $647. Suppose that Sue Klinkhamer can’t afford $647 per month. If she wants insurance, she has to go to the exchange and choose an new insurance plan, in her price range, presumably one with higher deductibles and a more restricted network. But if the exchange isn’t working, she can’t do that. So what’s she supposed to do? Here’s another one of these horror stories that does not stand up to scrutiny! It’s really quite remarkable. > [@](#): > > The other major problem is that these folks are relying only on the new ACA plans that their insurance companies are offering them, when in every case, there are (possibly) better, cheaper options. It all depends on what the consumer is looking for.[…] > > Let’s start with Jake Tapper’s subject, Sue, who used to have a $254 premium, and a $3500 deductible, and who makes too much money to qualify for subsidies. What if I told you that Sue could get a plan with a much lower deductible, say, zero dollars? And what if I told you that she could pay a zero dollar copay for office visits, prescriptions, inpatient and outpatient hospital care? And what if I told you this plan was from the same insurance company that Sue had before? Now how much would you pay? If a $6000 deductible is worth $647 /mo., then this thing must be, like, a million dollars a month. How does $228.66 /mo. grab you? > > I know what you’re thinking, that plan makes you get referrals, and who has time for that noise? In that case, you can get a $293 /mo. plan that does have a $6000 deductible, but which doesn’t apply that deductible to its $30 office visits and prescription drug copays, or for a little bit more, you can get the zero dollar deductible, zero dollar copays without referrals, at $309.78 /mo. from: [CNN’s Jake Tapper and Elizabeth Cohen Try to Be Fair About Obamacare ‘Sticker Shock’](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-jake-tapper-and-elizabeth-cohen-try-to-be-fair-about-obamacare-sticker-shock/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/27 "2013-12-04T16:12:48Z")
Well, this is all kinda irrelevant, isn’t it? The OP has given us a thread rather like a gated community, it has a distinct preference of theme: is Obamacare an abject failure, or is it a catastrophe of Biblical proportions, like a stern and vengeful Deity might visit upon the infidels? Naturally, the OP would prefer that we apply the same discipline and restraint as he has, and not wander off into a pointless pursuit of facts that have no bearing on the central theme. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/28 "2013-12-04T16:47:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, this is all kinda irrelevant, isn’t it? The OP has given us a thread rather like a gated community, it has a distinct preference of theme: is Obamacare an abject failure, or is it a catastrophe of Biblical proportions, like a stern and vengeful Deity might visit upon the infidels? > > Naturally, the OP would prefer that we apply the same discipline and restraint as he has, and not wander off into a pointless pursuit of facts that have no bearing on the central theme. :). indeed. That **Vinyl Turnip** is one [prescient](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16863444&postcount=21) mellon farmer. One has to appreciate such a dispassionate, clear-eyed and agenda free evaluation of this issue, conducted over multiple threads. I’ll try my hand at predicting an upcoming topic, as the improved enrollment system moves forward: “Successful health care enrollees: innocent dupes or complicit partisan sheeple?” ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/29 "2013-12-04T17:07:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > :). indeed. That **Vinyl Turnip** is one [prescient](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16863444&postcount=21) mellon farmer. Also in that thread is this [observation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16899280&postcount=73) by PhillyGuy pointing out a new standard - _keeping your insuranc_e - against which any future attempts to repeal, modify, replace or defund the ACA will be held. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/30 "2013-12-04T17:19:44Z")
The concept of hypocrisy has no meaning to any politician of any stripe. How can you lead the people without first figuring out which way they are going? If things keep going as they are (and that is far from settled) then a year from now the Republicans will be calling it Romneycare again. Not only was it their idea to begin with, but it is a clear example of how superior the Free Market (blessings and peace be upon it…) is to any “big government” solution. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/31 "2013-12-04T17:40:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The state exchanges are doing great. 0 people enrolled in Oregon, less than 300 in Hawaii. That’s your definition of “doing great”? > [@](#): > > The federal website problems have been sufficiently resolved, and by the deadline that Obama set at the beginning of November. The website screws up on third to one fifth of the attempts to purchase insurance. That’s your definition of “problems sufficiently resolved”? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/32 "2013-12-04T17:58:37Z")
Hawaiians, in general, are pretty lazy. If they don’t have to sign up for something until a certain date - they just won’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/33 "2013-12-04T18:11:12Z")
The problems with Oregon’s state exchange? Are you going to be making any comments relevant to the question at hand? Or is relevance a criteria for others, but not applicable to yourself? There are some minor deferences offered to the OP as a matter of courtesy, the title of Thread Dictator is not on the list. As to the whole system, the main options are fix or repeal. Obama won’t sign repeal, so unless you have a veto-proof majority in your pocket, your options are fix or fix. Unless you have something else? “Bitch about it” is an option, I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/34 "2013-12-04T18:21:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > 0 people enrolled in Oregon, less than 300 in Hawaii. That’s your definition of “doing great”? Ah, I forgot that we live in the United States of Hawaii and Oregon. Keep pluckin’ that cherry! > [@](#): > > The website screws up on third to one fifth of the attempts to purchase insurance. That’s your definition of “problems sufficiently resolved”? Hey, I’m just going by the evaluation of the nonpartisan Consumer Reports review that I linked to upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/35 "2013-12-04T18:31:32Z")
Also, Hawaii already has near universal coverage. It’s had it for decades actually. > **[Hawaii Prepaid Health Care Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Prepaid_Health_Care_Act)** > > Hawaii Prepaid Health Care (PHC) Act (PHCA) is a state law (Hawaii Revised Statutes Chapter 393) enacted June 12, 1974 in the State of Hawaii to improve health care coverage by employer mandate. The Hawaii Prepaid Health Care Act set a minimum standards of health care benefits for workers. Upon its adoption in 1974, Hawaii became the first U.S. state to require minimum standards of health care benefits by law. Hawaii State Rep. Yoshito Takamine, the longtime chairman of the House Labo Among other... And I’ve been trying to use the Hawaii Connector and it’s lagging on getting the accounts verified. So less than 300 makes sense. Not that I’m holding out that this will change ITR’s view. The heart wants what it wants. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/36 "2013-12-04T18:33:06Z")
So, ITR, will you retract your claim about Sue Klinkhamer, now that you have more information? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/37 "2013-12-04T19:31:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Ah, I forgot that we live in the United States of Hawaii and Oregon. Previously you made an unqualified statement that “the state exchanges are doing great”. I’ll take this as your admission that the state exchanges in Hawaii and Oregon are actually doing incredibly badly, contrary to what you said. (I won’t bother mentioning [Vermont](http://digital.vpr.net/post/shumlin-announces-major-health-care-exchange-delay) and [Maryland](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/maryland-struggling-with-technological-problems-with-online-insurance-exchange/2013/11/19/c44e2f9c-5140-11e3-9fe0-fd2ca728e67c_story.html) and [Massachusetts](http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/health-care/2013/11/mass-residents-sign-up-for-obamacare.html) and …) > [@](#): > > Here’s another one of these horror stories that does not stand up to scrutiny! It’s really quite remarkable. > > The other major problem is that these folks are relying only on the new ACA plans that their insurance companies are offering them, when in every case, there are (possibly) better, cheaper options. It all depends on what the consumer is looking for.[…] > > Let’s start with Jake Tapper’s subject, Sue, who used to have a $254 premium, and a $3500 deductible, and who makes too much money to qualify for subsidies. What if I told you that Sue could get a plan with a much lower deductible, say, zero dollars? And what if I told you that she could pay a zero dollar copay for office visits, prescriptions, inpatient and outpatient hospital care? And what if I told you this plan was from the same insurance company that Sue had before? Now how much would you pay? If a $6000 deductible is worth $647 /mo., then this thing must be, like, a million dollars a month. How does $228.66 /mo. grab you? > > I know what you’re thinking, that plan makes you get referrals, and who has time for that noise? In that case, you can get a $293 /mo. plan that does have a $6000 deductible, but which doesn’t apply that deductible to its $30 office visits and prescription drug copays, or for a little bit more, you can get the zero dollar deductible, zero dollar copays without referrals, at $309.78 /mo. > > from: [http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-jake...sticker-shock/](http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-jake...sticker-shock/) The claims that you posted are obviously false. They say that Sue Klinkhamer can get a plan with a $0 deductible at $228.66 per month. Anyone remotely familiar with health care rates would know that this is impossible. Klinkhamer is a 60-year-old in Illinois. Let’s head over to [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) and search for plans for 60-year-olds in Illinois. [Here are the results.](https://www.healthcare.gov/find-premium-estimates/#results/&aud=indv&type=med&state=IL&county=Cook&age0=60) As you can see, there is _no_ plan with a $0 deductible. Not at the price you quoted, not at any other price either. The website that you pasted from is full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/38 "2013-12-04T19:42:12Z")
So, is it fix, repeal, or bitch about it? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/39 "2013-12-04T19:58:02Z")
Interestingly, BCBS seems to have switched up the plans. The “Blue Precision Bronze HMO 003” for the period “01/01/2014-12/31/2014” has two different plan statements: > **[36096IL0810003a.pdf](https://www.bcbsil.com/PDF/sbc/36096IL0810003a.pdf)** > **[36096IL0810003b.pdf](https://www.bcbsil.com/PDF/sbc/36096IL0810003b.pdf)** The Illinois exchange links to the first one for \*any \*age person. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316/40 "2013-12-04T20:04:39Z")
It looks like the plan in the second link is for American Indians? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-be-done-for-those-who-couldnt-buy-health-care/675316.md?page=3)