# What, if anything, should the United States do about Mexico? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496 "2009-02-12T05:37:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/21 "2009-02-12T22:46:28Z")
Invade, already. ---
**Author:** ![flood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@flood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flood)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/22 "2009-02-12T22:48:43Z")
> [@Unregistered\_Bull](#): > > not really a blanket prohibition: [http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#r](http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#r) . Wow, I did not know that, but it doesn’t surprise me either. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/23 "2009-02-12T22:50:11Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I hate to say it, but do you have a cite on that? If I had millions of dollars, and my own transportation capability, I don’t think I would go to the extra hassle of buying black market weapons in the US and smuggling them. I would just go directly to a 3rd party and purchase directly. I’m sure Cuba has AK-47/74 production plants. Do you have a cite for that? Jeeze. Have you ever driven into Mexico? It’s easier than going to 7-11 to get a Slurpee. Have you ever asked yourself what countries love to make arms? You’ll find the US on the top of the list. And it’s right next door. Easy and cheap. Cuba? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/24 "2009-02-12T23:08:42Z")
Back in 1990, the ex- and I went to her homeland, India. We were in a taxi going from the airport to her home when suddenly, the driver stopped the car in the middle of traffic and jumped out. A fellow driver was getting hassled by a policeman. Shoving match ensued, policeman backed down, both drivers got back in their cars and went about their business. In poor countries, corruption runs high and the law has its hands full. Maybe the cop was shaking down the other driver, maybe not, but the rule of force outweighed that. If a simple traffic ticket results in that kind of drama, what’s the scenario for bigger crimes? My assumption is that in Mexico, there are some politicians, police, judges, etc. who are effectively wolves in sheep’s clothing, bribed or threatened by cartels. First you’d have to identify them, which isn’t always easy. But even if you took a bunch of bad guys out of the equation, the poverty for some is so abject and/or the rewards so great that they would step up to replace whoever you catch. I think many wonder, ‘Why can’t Mexico control its people, these criminals who are murdering and so on?’ But by the same token, why can’t the U.S. control its people, i.e. the dealers who distribute it and the drug addicts who create the demand? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/25 "2009-02-12T23:16:45Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > In poor countries, corruption runs high and the law has its hands full. I know many people from El Paso who have gotten pulled over in Cd. Juárez. Every single one of them paid a bribe. It is my understanding that if you actually get a ticket, the police remove your license plate. You get the plate back when you pay the ticket a few days later. How are you going to drive back to the US? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/26 "2009-02-12T23:17:58Z")
> [@flood](#): > > I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, it seems as if the Mexican government is incapable of doing anything to curtail the violence within its own borders. I don’t think attacking Mexico is the answer, but I don’t think sitting on our hands while this barbarism unfolds only minutes from where my parents and little brother live is the answer either. There has to be some sort of common ground. > > I’m not a gun control advocate either (I’ve grown up around firearms, respect them, and plan on owning a few as soon as I graduate and start earning some real money), but I realize that the system is inherently flawed when a non-US citizen can walk into a gun shop and clean them out of 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and .50 BMG. There simply aren’t enough resources being dedicated to securing our borders, and the construction of some fence isn’t going to magically solve all our problems; not when the majority of the guns and drugs moving from the US to Mexico and vice-versa cross through our ports of entry on trailers. Then in my mind the solution is simple: pass a law making it illegal to sell weapons to non-citizens. Of course, the people who sell those firearms will probably get pissed at the dent to their coffers, but its a tradeoff ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/27 "2009-02-12T23:31:23Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Is that all we have to do? I wish I had thought of that. Give me a couple hours in the basement . . . So in your basement, you can do what scientists have as of yet been unable to do ? > [@spifflog](#): > > I have a brother who’s been a drug addict most of his adult life. I think if most people could live with a loved one addicted to drugs, they wouldn’t be so willing to legalize drugs. Tossing a few extra bucks to drug treatment won’t make up for all the extra addicts running around. Did you bother to read what I wrote, or was your knee jerking so hard you couldn’t see the screen ? I was talking about research into **curing addiction** , not “Tossing a few extra bucks to drug treatment”. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/28 "2009-02-12T23:50:52Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I know many people from El Paso who have gotten pulled over in Cd. Juárez. Every single one of them paid a bribe. It is my understanding that if you actually get a ticket, the police remove your license plate. You get the plate back when you pay the ticket a few days later. How are you going to drive back to the US? I used to live in El Paso. I wasn’t big on going into Juarez but when I did, it was on foot except once, and the traffic was so bad on the bridge coming back that I’d never do it again. I hadn’t heard about the license plate method, but I heard many say that if an American ever had an accident over there, it was automatically his fault. Their assumption, I guess, is that you have insurance and their citizens will benefit. And you really don’t mess with the policia over there. Their jail cells are legendary. ---
**Author:** ![flood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@flood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flood)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/29 "2009-02-12T23:51:56Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > In poor countries, corruption runs high and the law has its hands full. Maybe the cop was shaking down the other driver, maybe not, but the rule of force outweighed that. If a simple traffic ticket results in that kind of drama, what’s the scenario for bigger crimes? > > My assumption is that in Mexico, there are some politicians, police, judges, etc. who are effectively wolves in sheep’s clothing, bribed or threatened by cartels. First you’d have to identify them, which isn’t always easy. But even if you took a bunch of bad guys out of the equation, the poverty for some is so abject and/or the rewards so great that they would step up to replace whoever you catch. I believe that this is the crux of the matter. When a man is willing to dissolve 300+ corpses in caustic lye for 600 dollars a week, it makes you wonder if things are already too far gone. > [@](#): > > I think many wonder, ‘Why can’t Mexico control its people, these criminals who are murdering and so on?’ But by the same token, why can’t the U.S. control its people, i.e. the dealers who distribute it and the drug addicts who create the demand? At this point in time, we’re really beyond just drugs. We’re talking about multiple syndicates who are vertically and horizontally integrated, within their own well-established organizations, in all areas of criminal activity. Their scope of work isn’t limited to drug trafficking; they carjack, kidnap, extort, and torture. It used to be that you would read of executions occurring in the deserts outside the city limits of Juarez and Nuevo Laredo…occasionally they would find a mass grave somewhere. Now, executions take place in broad daylight without warning; the full extent of violence and brutality is on display for all to see. Just a few days ago in Cancun, a car was discovered with a cooler containing two severed heads (one belonged to an ex-general of the Mexican military); often these discoveries are accompanied by a note intended to mock law enforcement, the criminal equivalent of T.O.'s Sharpie celebration. They want to create fear (hell, I’m fearful just writing about this stuff). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/30 "2009-02-13T00:20:10Z")
> [@flood](#): > > Absolutely. The vigilante group calling themselves the Juarez Citizens Command have vowed to kill one criminal a day starting in June if the government cannot restore order to the city. > > [First story I came across on Google](http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_11466731) :eek: I can understand their frustration, but **DAYUM!** ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/31 "2009-02-13T00:29:45Z")
> [@flood](#): > > At this point in time, we’re really beyond just drugs. We’re talking about multiple syndicates who are vertically and horizontally integrated, within their own well-established organizations, in all areas of criminal activity. Their scope of work isn’t limited to drug trafficking; they carjack, kidnap, extort, and torture. It used to be that you would read of executions occurring in the deserts outside the city limits of Juarez and Nuevo Laredo…occasionally they would find a mass grave somewhere. Now, executions take place in broad daylight without warning; the full extent of violence and brutality is on display for all to see. Just a few days ago in Cancun, a car was discovered with a cooler containing two severed heads (one belonged to an ex-general of the Mexican military); often these discoveries are accompanied by a note intended to mock law enforcement, the criminal equivalent of T.O.'s Sharpie celebration. They want to create fear (hell, I’m fearful just writing about this stuff). Yeah, I’m afraid you’re right. There was another thread in here I think, maybe a couple months ago, where someone basically said, “Sure, we took care of Escobar but the action just moved north.” That sounds about right—you try to finish off one anthill but it’s so lucrative that it springs up elsewhere or an existing operation grows from lack of competition. At least Escobar wasn’t so close to our border. We need to think before shooting ourselves in the foot again. It makes me wonder, too—if we could destroy the drug trade, wouldn’t they only double their efforts in other moneymaking areas? Like the mob, I’m sure they’ve diversified and will ultimately control prostitution, gambling, and whatever else they can. BTW when I lived there I remember some thought the bodies they were finding were also from mob hits, especially out by Hueco Tanks. Not that they were necessarily executed there, but the isolated area was a good dumping ground. ---
**Author:** ![flood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@flood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flood)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/32 "2009-02-13T01:03:05Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Yeah, I’m afraid you’re right. There was another thread in here I think, maybe a couple months ago, where someone basically said, “Sure, we took care of Escobar but the action just moved north.” That sounds about right—you try to finish off one anthill but it’s so lucrative that it springs up elsewhere or an existing operation grows from lack of competition. At least Escobar wasn’t so close to our border. We need to think before shooting ourselves in the foot again. That sounds about right. I wonder if this conflict will come to a resolution in my lifetime. Probably not. > [@](#): > > It makes me wonder, too—if we could destroy the drug trade, wouldn’t they only double their efforts in other moneymaking areas? Like the mob, I’m sure they’ve diversified and will ultimately control prostitution, gambling, and whatever else they can. Oh, absolutely. Hell, teachers were being forced to hand over their Christmas bonuses to a group claiming to be part of the Juarez Cartel. Turns out they weren’t; the thugs that were extorting the teachers wound up in dumpsters with their heads and hands cut off by members of the actual cartel. > [@](#): > > BTW when I lived there I remember some thought the bodies they were finding were also from mob hits, especially out by Hueco Tanks. Not that they were necessarily executed there, but the isolated area was a good dumping ground. Yeah, on any given day you never know what’s going to happen on the border; things are becoming more and more bizarre. Just last week a bus full of 9,000 lbs of marijuana was discovered on the side of the road just outside of Laredo. The bus had the markings of one of the local school districts, but DPS confirmed that the bus never belonged to the district—in fact, it had come from another part of the state. [Full story here w/ video.](http://www.pro8news.com/news/local/38827022.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/33 "2009-02-13T02:12:01Z")
The absolute worst thing the United States could do would be to send in force in a “Hunt for Pancho Villa, part II”. Especially if the force consisted of pink skinned Yanquees who knew about 100 words from a Spanish/English phrase book, had no experience in law enforcement or interdiction, and were told that the locals would welcome them as liberators. :rolleyes: The best advice I could give the Mexicans would be to talk to the Italians, and ask them how they defeated the organized crime that in the 1980s threatened the authority of the state. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/34 "2009-02-13T03:12:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m curious: Is there any political party, faction or movement **in Mexico** that is serious about doing something to crack down on the drug cartels? Calderon has been stepping up pressure. > [@flood](#): > > …I realize that the system is inherently flawed when a non-US citizen can walk into a gun shop and clean them out of 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and .50 BMG. The people who buy the guns are citizens. The cartels are multi-national. They have many connection with gangs in the U.S. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > My assumption is that in Mexico, there are some politicians, police, judges, etc. who are effectively wolves in sheep’s clothing, bribed or threatened by cartels. > [@Ruken](#): > > I know many people from El Paso who have gotten pulled over in Cd. Juárez. Every single one of them paid a bribe. And that was their mistake. (Providing they were innocent.) We were pulled over in Tijuana by cops wanting a bribe, and we just said, “If you think we’ve done something wrong, then take us into the station.” They kept hinting that we could “pay the fine” then and there, but we insisted. Eventually they said, “Okay, follow us to the station.” They drove off and turned onto another road, leaving us free to go back to my step-mother’s beach house in Rosarito. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Then in my mind the solution is simple: pass a law making it illegal to sell weapons to non-citizens. No, not so simple, because, again, the people who purchase the weapons are citizens. ---
**Author:** ![flood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@flood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flood)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/35 "2009-02-13T03:39:44Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > No, not so simple, because, again, the people who purchase the weapons are citizens. Right, the people purchasing weapons are US citizens—the so-called “straw men”. The people purchasing ammunition, however, are not necessarily US citizens; that was what I was referring to in the post you quoted. Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/36 "2009-02-13T19:13:58Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I hate to say it, but do you have a cite on that? If I had millions of dollars, and my own transportation capability, I don’t think I would go to the extra hassle of buying black market weapons in the US and smuggling them. I would just go directly to a 3rd party and purchase directly. I’m sure Cuba has AK-47/74 production plants. But maybe they want the lighter fancier stuff and have the money to spend. They already have the smuggling infrastructure. Why not bring something back when they bring the drugs over? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/37 "2009-02-13T23:09:57Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? > > Jeeze. Have you ever driven into Mexico? It’s easier than going to 7-11 to get a Slurpee. > > Have you ever asked yourself what countries love to make arms? You’ll find the US on the top of the list. And it’s right next door. Easy and cheap. > > Cuba? :rolleyes: I haven’t been to Mexico in years, but driving into the interior requires passing through military checkpoints AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/38 "2009-02-14T05:03:10Z")
> [@Unregistered\_Bull](#): > > I haven’t been to Mexico in years, but driving into the interior requires passing through military checkpoints AFAIK. I’m not sure what that has to do with how the narcos get their arms. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/39 "2009-02-14T15:07:04Z")
> [@Unregistered\_Bull](#): > > I haven’t been to Mexico in years, but driving into the interior requires passing through military checkpoints AFAIK. My folks took a bus to Chihuahua (the city). No checkpoints. That was far enough “interior” that they needed to get a visa ahead of time. Simply entering the country is easy. They randomly check vehicles and pedestrians entering; you press a button and if the light comes on then you get special attention. Most people just walk/drive right in. If you’ve got a semi full of guns then maybe that works differently, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496/40 "2009-02-14T19:21:01Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > My folks took a bus to Chihuahua (the city). No checkpoints. That was far enough “interior” that they needed to get a visa ahead of time. Simply entering the country is easy. They randomly check vehicles and pedestrians entering; you press a button and if the light comes on then you get special attention. Most people just walk/drive right in. Yes. It’s pretty ridiculous. Why do they need to use that silly traffic light thing? They could just as well have the guy randomly check people. Anyway, coming on foot into Tijuana–the site of the most rampant and flagrant narco-violence–there’s just a guy there daydreaming. I’ve crossed there dozen of times, and not once have I ever been asked to push the button. (Coming into to the airport from Cuba, though, everyone has to push it. But I’ve still never had to be inspected.) > [@Ruken](#): > > If you’ve got a semi full of guns then maybe that works differently, I don’t know. I think any truck that obviously is shipping in a large load of anything is susceptible to search, but the narcos just bring in small loads in trunks or SUVs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-anything-should-the-united-states-do-about-mexico/485496.md?page=3)