# What if Chile's President Allende had not been overthrown in 1973? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219 "2005-12-18T23:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/61 "2005-12-23T19:13:53Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > In yet another twist of historical irony, Allende might enjoy the presumption of being morally superior to Pinochet, because Pinochet didn’t allow Allende to abuse power to his full potential. > > I must say, the fact that Allende interfered with judicial process in favor of Marxist terrorists, combined with his expressed committment to make Chile a Marxist Socialist state are very grave portents for terrible things that might have come, was he not stopped in time. Just to show that lack of patience is the best ally of fascism. Besides, the same excuse was used to justify the coup in Venezuela. The difference was the people had the power to say no to the army and the new Pinochets were stopped. While there is evidence of the heavy hand of Chavez, and I would not mind seeing him lose next time, the fact is that all the end of time predictions of him being in power did not materialize. The reality is that in Chile the timing of the coup was made to fit with the worst conditions, **Venezuela did pass trough similar conditions that were made worse by the opposition, time was not on the side of the oposition if the economy got better.** I see Pinochet as an oportunist, besides of being a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/62 "2005-12-23T19:48:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I also dismiss the Catholic University results when I consider the padding in the report about “other possible frauds”. That is not evidence. You have to explain why then in the runoff election, Allende came the clear winner. Ummm, there was never a runoff election. Allende won when Congress due to the support of the Christian Democrat Congressmen. That doesn’t mean anything at all. Runoff elections were introduced in the Constitution of 1981, which was approved in a plebiscite in 1980. In your previous post, you say that the plebiscite of 1980 was like the election Saddam Hussein supposedly “won” in 1997. This is a really bad comparison. The plebiscite was not to approve or disapprove of Pinochet per se, but to approve or disapprove of a new constituion. Second, of course Pinochet was not challenged directly. The election was a plebscite not a presidential election! ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/63 "2005-12-23T19:55:35Z")
The part about “other frauds” is also not ground for dismissing the whole report. How do you explain the act that in the _mesas_ where irregularities were reported, Allende won? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/64 "2005-12-23T20:02:00Z")
> [@Rini](#): > > Of course :rolleyes: Blame America first. 1. Blaming the U.S. government is not the same as blaming America. 2. Blaming the U.S. government is appropriate – and patriotic – in circumstances where it is, in fact, to blame. And it does appear that the U.S. government was at least partly to blame for Chile’s economic woes under Allende’s administration. See post #2. See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile\_under\_Allende#U.S.\_role\_in\_opposing\_Allende:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile_under_Allende#U.S._role_in_opposing_Allende:) > [@](#): > > While U.S. government hostility to the Allende regime is unquestioned, the U.S. role in the coup itself remains a highly controversial matter. Documents declassified during the Clinton administration [17] show that the United States government and the CIA had sought the overthrow of Allende in 1970, immediately after he took office (“Project FUBELT”; U.S. efforts to prevent Allende taking office in 1970 are discussed in 1970 Chilean presidential election), but claims of their direct involvement in the actual coup are neither proven nor contradicted by publicly available documentary evidence; many potentially relevant documents still remain classified. [18] > > Clandestine efforts by the U.S. government to prevent Allende from taking office are particularly well documented. For example, a formal instruction was issued on 16 October 1970 to the CIA base in Chile, saying in part, “It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. It would be much preferable to have this transpire prior to 24 October but efforts in this regard will continue vigorously beyond this date. We are to continue to generate maximum pressure toward this end, utilizing every appropriate resource. It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG and American hand be well hidden…” [19] > > An early documented action in this regard was the kidnapping of René Schneider by an anti-Allende group. Schneider was an army commander and a constitutionalist, which meant he would not support a coup. The CIA in Santiago kept contact with two groups inside the military and provided guns and money for this action. However, Schneider was killed during the operation. This incident caused the citizens and the military to rally behind the just-elected Allende. > > Immediately after the Allende government won office the U.S. began high-level planning to ensure the Marxist experiment would not succeed. This would be achieved by, among other strategies, massive reduction in economic aid. Declassified U.S. National Security Council documents, include decision memorandum no. 93, dated November 9, 1970, written by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and addressed to the heads of diplomatic, defense and intelligence departments. This document stated that pressure should be placed on the Allende government to prevent its consolidation and limit its ability to implement policies contrary to U.S. and hemisphere interests, specifically, the President has directed no new bilateral economic aid commitments be undertaken with the government of Chile [Kissinger, 1970]. > > The CIA was notified by contacts of the impending Pinochet coup two days in advance, but contends it “played no direct role in” the coup. After Pinochet assumed power, U.S. Secretary of State Kissinger told U.S. President Richard Nixon that the U.S. “didn’t do it” (referring to the coup itself) but had “created the conditions as great [sic] as possible.” [20] > [@Rini](#): > > **9 June 1967** > A _carabinero_ (policeman) is kidnapped by the MIR in Concepción. He is released, but his weapons and uniform are stolen. . . . . Good start! Now: 1. What is your cite for all these MIR crimes? (You provided very detailed information without explaining where you found it.) 2. What, if any, was Allende’s complicity in any of them? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/65 "2005-12-23T20:04:13Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Would you support Lenin and Hitler early assassinations? Not Lenin, to be sure. Stalin, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/66 "2005-12-23T20:05:46Z")
But that’s the kind of decision you can only really make in hindsight, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/67 "2005-12-23T20:08:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Good start! Now: > > 1. What is your cite for all these MIR crimes? (You provided very detailed information without explaining where you found it.) > > 2. What, if any, was Allende’s complicity in any of them? [Cite](http://www.angelfire.com/la/cin/cronologia.html). I never said Allende had any complicity, but that he gave amnesty to these terrorists and did next to nothing to counter their actions. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/68 "2005-12-23T20:14:49Z")
> [@Rini](#): > > Ummm, there was never a runoff election. Allende won when Congress due to the support of the Christian Democrat Congressmen. That doesn’t mean anything at all. Runoff elections were introduced in the Constitution of 1981, which was approved in a plebiscite in 1980. I made a mistake there, some sources described the congressional vote as the runoff, in any case, the support of congress for Allende was huge. > [@](#): > > in your previous post, you say that the plebiscite of 1980 was like the election Saddam Hussein supposedly “won” in 1997. This is a really bad comparison. The plebiscite was not to approve or disapprove of Pinochet per se, but to approve or disapprove of a new constituion. Second, of course Pinochet was not challenged directly. The election was a plebscite not a presidential election! That was not what you implied in your previous post. > [@Rini](#): > > What’s so special about Nicaragua? The Sandinistas stayed in power for eleven years, killed their opponents, held an election on 1984 and won around 60% of the vote, and stepped down after loosing an election in 1990. Pinochet stayed in pwer for 17 years, killed his opponents, held a plebiscite on 1980, won around 60% of the vote, and stepped down in after loosing a plebiscite in 1988. What you implied was that the plebiscite was comparable to an election for Pinochet when it was for the constitution, and as it was shown, it was an unfair plebiscite. You were misleading at best. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/69 "2005-12-23T20:19:41Z")
> [@Rini](#): > > [Cite](http://www.angelfire.com/la/cin/cronologia.html). > > I never said Allende had any complicity, but that he gave amnesty to these terrorists and did next to nothing to counter their actions. Sorry to say, it is a cite in Spanish (Not all posters speak Spanish **Rini** ), and unless you can point who is the group posting this (Angelfire is a free web hosting entity) I will have to dismiss it too. ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/70 "2005-12-23T20:30:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I made a mistake there, some sources described the congressional vote as the runoff, in any case, the support of congress for Allende was huge. Not really. It was all thanks to a “treaty” with the Christian Democrats, many of whom later opposed Allende. And I don’t believe that the fact that Congress approved Allende meant that the Chilean people supported Allende. > [@](#): > > That was not what you implied in your previous post. > > What you implied was that the plebiscite was comparable to an election for Pinochet when it was for the constitution, and as it was shown, it was an unfair plebiscite. You were misleading at best. I apologize for being misleading. What I meant was that the 1980 plebiscite is evidence that Chileans supported Pinochet just like Nicaraguans supported Ortega. Hence the use of the phrase _per se_ in my post. However, uou’re still wrong about Pinochet not being challenged directly. Since it was a plebiscite, of course there was no other candidate challenging Pinochet, but voting “no” was equivalent to opposing 10 more years of Pinochet. I have yet to see clear evidence of electoral fraud. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/71 "2005-12-23T20:46:22Z")
> [@Rini](#): > > I apologize for being misleading. What I meant was that the 1980 plebiscite is evidence that Chileans supported Pinochet just like Nicaraguans supported Ortega. Hence the use of the phrase _per se_ in my post. However, uou’re still wrong about Pinochet not being challenged directly. Since it was a plebiscite, of course there was no other candidate challenging Pinochet, but voting “no” was equivalent to opposing 10 more years of Pinochet. I have yet to see clear evidence of electoral fraud. Now you putting words in my mouth, I never said electoral fraud. This was more of the typical militaristic “democratic” elections in Latin America in which the result was preordained. It was a highly irregular and undemocratic plebiscite that among other things had an absence of registration lists. It was the Christian Democratic Party that made the biggest noise questioning the plebiscite’s results; their leader was exiled for daring to question Pinochet. ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/72 "2005-12-23T20:50:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Now you putting words in my mouth, I never said electoral fraud. This was more of the typical militaristic “democratic” elections in Latin America in which the result was preordained. It was a highly irregular and undemocratic plebiscite that among other things had an absence of registration lists. It was the Christian Democratic Party that made the biggest noise questioning the plebiscite’s results; their leader was exiled for daring to question Pinochet. Their leader was exiled? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/73 "2005-12-23T20:52:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sorry to say, it is a cite in Spanish (Not all posters speak Spanish **Rini** ), and unless you can point who is the group posting this (Angelfire is a free web hosting entity) I will have to dismiss it too. Of course the site is in Spanish. Chile is a Spanish-speaking country, so the vast majority of sites about Chilean history are bound to be in Spanish. The site is of a pro-Pinochet organization. Before you dismiss it, I dont think anybody denies the MIR was indeed a Marxist guerrilla organization. Problem is, nobody except pro-Pinochetists cared to investigate the MIR’s crimes. The only neutral evidence of the MIR’s crimes is probably found in the archives of Chilean newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/74 "2005-12-23T21:13:00Z")
> [@Rini](#): > > Their leader was exiled? Cite? That was on post #56. don’t play ignorant now. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/75 "2005-12-23T21:16:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But that’s the kind of decision you can only really make in hindsight, isn’t it? Yes. Therein lies the hard part, because real life requires acting at the present moment. So, when you have a violent Marxist insurgency in the country, enjoying President’s protection, you look at the history of Marxist takeovers of power. The record is extremely bleak. You don’t want Lenin or Mao in your own country. So you need to fight fire with fire. Nicaragua example is irrelevant, because by 1990 USSR was defeated in Afghanistan and in speedy retreat on all fronts, so Sandinistas couldn’t rely on any support from other Communist regimes and had to be conciliatory. In 1973 the situation was exactly opposite. USSR was strong and meddling in internal affairs of other countries everywhere. It was the USA that was weak in 1973, just being defeated in Vietnam and with a huge number of internal problems. USA decided to draw battlelines in Chile and other Latin American countries. Right? Wrong? One thing for sure: if they didn’t, the world might have been a lot different right now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/76 "2005-12-23T21:18:32Z")
> [@Rini](#): > > [Cite](http://www.angelfire.com/la/cin/cronologia.html). > > I never said Allende had any complicity, but that he gave amnesty to these terrorists and did next to nothing to counter their actions. Which does not mean anything they did was in any way his fault, nor welcomed by him. See post #39. In fact, since, by your own account, the MRI continued its terrorist activities even under the fierce Pinochet regime, it’s hard to see how Allende **could** have done anything to stop them – except by giving the people what they wanted by nonviolent means, which is what Allende was working on. Had he succeeded, the MRI might simply have disbanded for lack of interest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/77 "2005-12-23T21:28:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You don’t want Lenin or Mao in your own country. Not even if that’s what the people appear to want, or think they want? > [@Henry Kissinger](#): > > I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves. Surely you wouldn’t presume to defend **that** kind of thinking – would you? ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/78 "2005-12-23T21:39:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which does not mean anything they did was in any way his fault, nor welcomed by him. See post #39. In fact, since, by your own account, the MRI continued its terrorist activities even under the fierce Pinochet regime, it’s hard to see how Allende **could** have done anything to stop them – except by giving the people what they wanted by nonviolent means, which is what Allende was working on. Had he succeeded, the MRI might simply have disbanded for lack of interest. Allende could’ve stopped giving amnesty to MIR members. ---
**Author:** ![Rini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rini)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/79 "2005-12-23T21:41:35Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was on post #56. don’t play ignorant now. Ah, yes. I missed that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219/80 "2005-12-25T00:25:35Z")
Say, this is interesting! Looking over the links at the end of the Wikipedia article on Allende, I found one about something called “Project Cybersyn” – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_Cybersyn:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn:) > [@](#): > > Project Cybersyn was a Chilean attempt at real-time computer-controlled planned economy in the years 1970-1973 (during the government of president Salvador Allende). It was essentially a network of telex machines that linked factories with a single computer center in Santiago, which controlled them using principles of cybernetics. The principal architect of the system was British operations research scientist Stafford Beer. > > \ > > The system > > There were 500 unused telex machines bought by the previous government, each was put into one factory. In the control center in Santiago, each day data coming from each factory (several numbers, such as raw material input, production output and number of absentees) were put into a computer, which made short-term predictions and necessary adjustments. There were four levels of control (firm, branch, sector, total), with algedonic feedback (if lower level of control didn’t remedy a problem in a certain interval, the higher level was notified). The results were discussed in the operations room and the top-level plan was made. > > The software for Cybersyn was called Cyberstrider, and it used Bayesian filtration and Bayesian control. It was written by a team of 12 British programmers. > > The operations room was very futuristic-looking. It was furnished with 7 swivel chairs (considered the best for creativity) with buttons, which controlled several large screens that could project the data, and other panels with status information. The whole idea – it’s so '70s! I’m flashing on _The Prisoner, Logan’s Run . . ._ Just imagine what might have happened if the Allende regime had survived . . . 3:42 a.m., April 8, 1983 – Cybersyn becomes self-aware . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-chiles-president-allende-had-not-been-overthrown-in-1973/336219.md?page=3)