# What if Columbus had sailed for England? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246 "2013-08-14T20:32:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/21 "2013-08-15T01:36:01Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Since he was trying to get to India, wouldn’t he have sailed south and caught the North Equatorial Current, same as before? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think coffeecat’s right. Columbus would have essentially followed the same route across the ocean regardless of where he started from. No, you’re both wrong. The current would have been overpowered by the trade winds, which would have whooshed him right to Plymouth Rock. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/22 "2013-08-15T01:38:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see why England couldn’t have done what Spain did. From what I can find England had a larger population. According to [this page](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp)–which admits up front that the figures given are very speculative–in 1450 Spain/Portugal had a population of approximately 7 million, while the British Isles had only approximately 3 million. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/23 "2013-08-15T01:46:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Henry VII had better things to do with all those people than to send them off to conquer the Inca. By the time he took over, England was pretty well bankrupt. Not to mention the fact that Henry really wasn’t all that militarily inclined. He had enough on his plate just getting England’s house in order. > > OTOH, the New World would be an ideal place to ship off all those people who were trying to rebel. > > On the gripping hand, that would just establish English colonies that were hostile to the crown. Spain didn’t have a lot of money either in 1492. The thing about the Columbus expedition was that it was actually pretty cheap - three small ships and less than a hundred sailors. The big thing against it was pretty much everyone expected it to fail. It was like placing a ten dollar bet on a 1000-1 shot. But once Columbus surprised everyone and successfully found land where he said it would be, the numbers changed. Everyone knew that a new route to Asia (which is what they thought they had) would be a big profit maker and Spain was quick to follow through. England would have done the same if it had been them. And by the time people realized they hadn’t gone to Asia and found a source of spices, they knew they had found a new world that had silver and gold. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/24 "2013-08-15T01:49:20Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > No, you’re both wrong. The current would have been overpowered by the trade winds, which would have whooshed him right to Plymouth Rock. If that’s the case then the New World would be a bust. Or the tobacco trade gets a head start. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/25 "2013-08-15T01:52:27Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > According to [this page](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp)–which admits up front that the figures given are very speculative–in 1450 Spain/Portugal had a population of approximately 7 million, while the British Isles had only approximately 3 million. Okay, I’ll buy that. It matches the figure I had for England. The only figure I could find for Spain said its population was under two million but it didn’t offer any sources. Without knowing how the seven million was split between Spain and Portugal, I’ll concede Spain had a larger population than England. But I don’t think England was so far behind that manpower would have been an issue. France certainly had more people than England and Spain combined but it was a marginal colonial power in the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/26 "2013-08-15T02:41:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Without knowing how the seven million was split between Spain and Portugal, I’ll concede Spain had a larger population than England. There are a couple of dueling estimates of the Spanish population in the 1530’s ( which presaged a general European boom in the 16th century ). One group typified by folks like Paul Bairoch argues for an estimated ~7.5 million in Spain, with ~6.5 million in Castile. Others like Albert Carreras argue for a much lower estimate of ~4.8 million, with ~3.1 million in Castile. That big discrepancy highlights the weakness of the sources. By contrast England + Wales seems to be estimated in the ~3 million range for the same rough date ( 1541 ). Still regardless of which dueling figures you accept for Spain, it is pretty likely by the latter half of the 14th century ( after the first big hit by the Black Death ) Castile alone was probably at least a bit more populous and prosperous than England and that was still likely the case by the Age of Exploration. Exactly how much more so is obviously a matter of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/27 "2013-08-15T04:30:53Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > There are a couple of dueling estimates of the Spanish population in the 1530’s ( which presaged a general European boom in the 16th century ). One group typified by folks like Paul Bairoch argues for an estimated ~7.5 million in Spain, with ~6.5 million in Castile. Others like Albert Carreras argue for a much lower estimate of ~4.8 million, with ~3.1 million in Castile. That big discrepancy highlights the weakness of the sources. > > By contrast England + Wales seems to be estimated in the ~3 million range for the same rough date ( 1541 ). Still regardless of which dueling figures you accept for Spain, it is pretty likely by the latter half of the 14th century ( after the first big hit by the Black Death ) Castile alone was probably at least a bit more populous and prosperous than England and that was still likely the case by the Age of Exploration. Exactly how much more so is obviously a matter of debate. But I’ve noted that population isn’t really a relevant issue. Cortes landed in Mexico with five hundred men. Pizarro set out for Peru with two hundred and fifty men. Alvarado’s expedition into Guatemala had four hundred men. Ponce de Leon’s expedition to Florida had two hundred men. Velasquez de Cuellar conquered Cuba with three hundred men. Does anyone think England couldn’t have found these numbers as well? Amazing as it seems, the Americas were conquered by just a few thousand soldiers. The difference between a manpower pool of three million and one of eight million wasn’t significant. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/28 "2013-08-15T17:53:55Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > No, you’re both wrong. The current would have been overpowered by the trade winds, which would have whooshed him right to Plymouth Rock. 😕 The trade winds are easterly, like the current. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/29 "2013-08-15T19:25:26Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > You’re all missing the obvious. England is ~1000 north of Spain. By starting out that far north, Columbus would have ended up landing somewhere in the Chesapeake Bay area, or perhaps on Roanoke Island. There’s no telling how history would work out had England landed there, but then I’m sure there are some works of speculative fiction that would be interesting. > [@coffeecat](#): > > Since he was trying to get to India, wouldn’t he have sailed south and caught the North Equatorial Current, same as before? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think coffeecat’s right. Columbus would have essentially followed the same route across the ocean regardless of where he started from. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > No, you’re both wrong. The current would have been overpowered by the trade winds, which would have \*\*whooshed \*\*him right to Plymouth Rock. > [@drastic\_quench](#): > > If that’s the case then the New World would be a bust. Or the tobacco trade gets a head start. > [@coffeecat](#): > > 😕 The trade winds are easterly, like the current. Most do, but not all. A subset travels west, but evidently not many people can recognize them. They’re after both their direction and the peculiar sound they make: _The Whooshterlies_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/30 "2013-08-15T19:37:14Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Most do, but not all. A subset travels west, but evidently not many people can recognize them. They’re after both their direction and the peculiar sound they make: _The Whooshterlies_. I got it after your second post. But there was nothing in your first post that indicated you were joking. A lot of people might seriously believe that a ship sailing across the ocean would just head straight west from its home port. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/31 "2013-08-16T11:34:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But I’ve noted that population isn’t really a relevant issue. Cortes landed in Mexico with five hundred men. Pizarro set out for Peru with two hundred and fifty men. Alvarado’s expedition into Guatemala had four hundred men. Ponce de Leon’s expedition to Florida had two hundred men. Velasquez de Cuellar conquered Cuba with three hundred men. Does anyone think England couldn’t have found these numbers as well? Amazing as it seems, the Americas were conquered by just a few thousand soldiers. The difference between a manpower pool of three million and one of eight million wasn’t significant. But doesn’t that depend on how they selected for their military, and that the greater population of Spain would give an advantage in finding really high grade soldiers ? How were the conquistadors selected ? Did they have the equivalent of modern Special Forces selection courses or was the culture totally different ? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/32 "2013-08-16T12:07:09Z")
He’d have accidentally discovered the Isle of Wight. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/33 "2013-08-16T14:21:52Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > How were the conquistadors selected ? Did they have the equivalent of modern Special Forces selection courses or was the culture totally different ? Hernan Cortes was originally a lawyer. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/34 "2013-08-16T16:23:11Z")
Well, at that time in Spain there turned out to be thousands of adventurers willing to head off to the Americas for plunder and glory. Would Britain have had the same? I’m thinking no. Spain didn’t conquer the Americas because they saw it first, they conquered the Americas because they were the only country with the preconditions necessary to conquer the Americas. Lots of other countries tried to send expeditions to the Americas, and none of the succeeded as spectacularly as the Spaniards. The Spanish left North America to the British and the French, not because North America was too far north for them, or because the British saw it first, but because it was comparatively worthless compared to Mesoamerica. North America was just a bunch of thinly distributed farming villages. Mesoamerica was a rich empire that produced literally tons of gold and silver. Eventually farming villages and fur trading started to sound pretty good to countries who didn’t have access to the Spanish gold mines. But they were a distant consolation prize compared to the riches of the Spanish empire. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/35 "2013-08-16T16:29:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Would Britain have had the same? I’m thinking no. Concur. As it was, it took England 100+ years to start serious efforts in the new world. Being the “discoverers” of it (=movie executive producers) ca. 1500 wouldn’t have changed that, most likely. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/36 "2013-08-16T17:24:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Today we’d all be speaking English. Alright, that’s funny. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Hernan Cortes was originally a lawyer. > > Seriously. And then he got worse. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/37 "2013-08-16T17:42:44Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > > > Today we’d all be speaking English. > > Alright, that’s funny. But, as George Lopez put it in an early comedy bit, _we’d have no place names_. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/38 "2013-08-16T18:17:27Z")
**What if Columbus had sailed for England?** He would have come back to Spain, loaded with fish and chips and woollen goods. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/39 "2013-08-17T08:09:56Z")
Okay, I feel we’ve pretty much lost the topic here. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Columbus achieved the same thing for England he would achieve for Spain five years later. Spanish America becomes English America instead. So Columbus discovered America for England. England occupied the same territory in the Americas that Spain did historically. How? A wizard did it. Now that we’ve affirmed the premise, let’s discuss what changes in history would result from it. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246/40 "2013-08-17T12:12:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Now that we’ve affirmed the premise, let’s discuss what changes in history would result from it. New Amsterdam would have stayed New Amsterdam, for one thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-columbus-had-sailed-for-england/666246.md?page=1)