# What if Edward VIII had never met Wallis Simpson? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669 "2012-12-11T02:34:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/21 "2012-12-12T02:21:52Z")
I think the interesting questions are: Was Mrs Simpson a man and was Edward VIII crazy? I know the suggestions about her and just think it’s an interesting topic, and that the Archbishop claimed Eddie was both crazy and an alcoholic, and that both were obviously drunks (I mean, just LOOK at him!), but is there other evidence that he was insane? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/22 "2012-12-12T02:49:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, none of the Windsors are mental giants, are they? Charles graduated with second class honors from Cambridge. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/23 "2012-12-12T03:29:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, none of the Windsors are mental giants, are they? Well, one rather prominent Windsor is the curent monarch, Queen Elizzbeth II. She is, by all accounts, a very sharp cookie. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/24 "2012-12-12T03:54:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, none of the Windsors are mental giants, are they? Over the past century, the House of Windsor has survived two World Wars, a Great Depression, an abdication and the decline of the British Empire. During that same time period, the monarchies in Russia, Germany, Portugal, Italy, Austro-Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia have all ended, some with extreme prejudice. The Windsors are very good at what they do, which is a good measure of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/25 "2012-12-12T05:06:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …While this is literally true, I don’t see why it’s a problem with the movie [The King’s Speech]. Churchill barely appears in it. The movie is about George VI and his problem with public speaking; it doesn’t go into all the details of the abdication crisis for the same reason it doesn’t go into the details of the Munich crisis. It isn’t relevant to the story. All you need to know is that Edward (or David, as he was, confusingly, known to his family) was a dimwit who quit his job for a floozy. But on the few occasions when Churchill _does_ appear, including in a one-on-one scene with the future George VI, he’s shown as a strong supporter of the troubled duke. Pre-Abdication, that just isn’t so. If he’s going to “barely appear,” his cameo ought at least to be historically accurate, I think. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/26 "2012-12-12T13:23:10Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > But on the few occasions when Churchill _does_ appear, including in a one-on-one scene with the future George VI, he’s shown as a strong supporter of the troubled duke. Pre-Abdication, that just isn’t so. If he’s going to “barely appear,” his cameo ought at least to be historically accurate, I think. I don’t find it terribly difficult to beleive Churchill would have been supportive of Albert _when he was in a one-on-one conversation with him_, do you? Churchill was a politician. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/27 "2012-12-12T13:34:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t find it terribly difficult to beleive Churchill would have been supportive of Albert _when he was in a one-on-one conversation with him_, do you? Churchill was a politician. That’s like saying I dunno a major Romney donor being supportive of Obama in a face to face meeting. Its not credible that it will happen. Churchill was the most prominent politician to support Edward VIII. He is supposed to have written or at least improved upon the Abdication address. For anyone with a knowledge of history, that scene was jarring. For a Canadian equivalent, it would be like a movie about the October crises having Jean Chretien counsel Trudeau against using the War Powers Act. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/28 "2012-12-12T13:47:15Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Charles graduated with second class honors from Cambridge. No cite for this (as if there would be one) but it is highly likely he went to Cambridge because of who he was not what he knew and got a 2:2, which is not something to shout about. The Queen and Princess Anne are probably the sharpest tools in the Windsor shed. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/29 "2012-12-12T17:04:59Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That’s like saying I dunno a major Romney donor being supportive of Obama in a face to face meeting. Or a Republican governor praising Obama’s handling of a crisis in a face to face meeting? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/30 "2012-12-12T17:20:43Z")
> [@Cumbrian](#): > > No cite for this (as if there would be one) but it is highly likely he went to Cambridge because of who he was not what he knew and got a 2:2, which is not something to shout about. > > The Queen and Princess Anne are probably the sharpest tools in the Windsor shed. yes he got a “Desmond”… “… Trinity College, Cambridge University, where he read anthropology, archaeology, and history.[9] During his second year, Charles attended the University College of Wales in Aberystwyth, studying Welsh history and language for a term.[9] He graduated from Cambridge with a 2:2 Bachelor of Arts on 23 June 1970, the first heir apparent to earn a university degree…” > **[Charles III](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles,_Prince_of_Wales)** > > Charles III (Charles Philip Arthur George; born 14 November 1948) is King of the United Kingdom and the 14 other Commonwealth realms.\[b\] > Charles was born at Buckingham Palace during the reign of his maternal grandfather, King George VI, and became heir apparent when his mother, Queen Elizabeth II, acceded to the throne in 1952. He was created Prince of Wales in 1958 and his investiture was held in 1969. He was educated at Cheam School and Gordonstoun, and later spent six months at the Timbe... hay he’s as qualified as me!now where my knighthood! ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/31 "2012-12-12T19:27:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, none of the Windsors are mental giants, are they? In his autobiography Walter Cronkite says he had two in depth conversations with Prince Phillip, on marine conservation and international relations. Both times Cronkite was impressed and says he thought it was a misuse of talent to have the Duke of Edinburgh spend his life walking three paces behind his wife. I agree with the post that we forget how scandalous divorce was 75 years ago, Or in the 1950s Princess Margaret was not allowed to marry a divorced war hero in Peter Townsend (no, not the guitarist from The Who). Or even in 1970 when Jim Bouton was hired to do sports on a New York City TV station, the station boss asked if his and his wife were having problems, saying that divorced people were quitters. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/32 "2012-12-12T19:43:17Z")
IRT Churchill’s attitude: he was the product of the old upper-class, who regarded morality as something the poor needed to be kept in line, and the middle class conned into thinking it kept them above the poor; but as for themselves it was silly. Adultery was socially accpeted, and it was bad form for the cheated-upon spouse make a fuss. His own mother had slept with many important men, and he was glad of it for the favors they returned on him in his young career. During the abdication crisis, Chirchill discussed the issue with Noel Coward over dinner. Churchill said “why not just let him marry his sweetie?” Coward, despite his jazz-age swellegance still the product of the solid middle class, replied that the people didn’t want his “sweetie” for their queen. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/33 "2012-12-12T21:13:45Z")
What **Slithy Tove** remarks is true. I remember reading of one man in the Victorian age who was shunned by Queen Victoria after he sued his unfaithful wife for divorce - even though he had been the one wronged, he was isolated, because he made it public. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/34 "2012-12-12T21:18:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That’s like saying I dunno a major Romney donor being supportive of Obama in a face to face meeting. Its not credible that it will happen. I find it highly credible, especially if the Republican was a genuine statesman and they were facing an absolutely enormous foreign policy crisis. Imagine a moderate Republican sitting down with Obama and talking about what appears to be the imminent invasion of Taiwan by the People’s Republic of China. You think the GOPer wouldn’t be supportive? Churchill’s support of Edward VIII is certainly well known, but he was willing to work with anyone as necessity demanded it, and he was smart enough (by that point in his career, anyway) to know you don’t want to piss off a potential future monarch. Churchill was prone to flights of romantic fantasy - this is a guy who proposed the UK and France merging into one country - but he didn 't let it get in the way of practicalities. He made nice with Stalin when he needed to, a man he compared to Satan. Did they gloss over the fact Churchill supported Edward VIII’s desire to marry Wallis Simpson? Well, sure, but again, you’ve got two hours to tell a story that basically centres around Albert/George VI, Elizabeth, and Lionel Logue. Practically speaking, you cannot really get into the Wallis Simpson controversy; for the sake of “The King’s Speech” you have to present that\* as an event that happens to Albert/George VI\*, a sort of force majeure thing that catches his in a position of vulnerability. You might have two, three minutes, tops, for Churchill. You pretty much have no choice to simplify it, especially when, due to dramatic necessity, you actually have to exaggerate the speech thing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/35 "2012-12-12T23:14:59Z")
Better to leave Churchill out entirely than to mischaracterize his role, I think. He could easily have been omitted - he wasn’t even Prime Minister when the King gave his climactic speech at the end of the movie; Chamberlain still was. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/36 "2012-12-12T23:40:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Better to leave Churchill out entirely than to mischaracterize his role, I think. He could easily have been omitted - he wasn’t even Prime Minister when the King gave his climactic speech at the end of the movie; Chamberlain still was. That’s a good point, and I can’t help but think they included him just to center people in the time. To be honest, the only thing that bothered me about him was that the actor didn’t look or sound at all like Churchill. They seemed to have gone on the theory that Churchill was a roundish, ruddy faced guy with a gravelley voice, and any roundish, ruddy faced guy would do; so of like doing a biography of Ulysses S. Grant and deciding that since Grant was short and had a beard, a good choice to play him would be David Cross as long as Dave doesn’t shave for a month. It was especially weird in that they managed, otherwise, to get actors who kind of looked like the people involved. I wouldn’t say Colin Firth is a dead ringer for George VI - he’s just too handsome, really - but he’s not too far off. Helena Bonham-Carter is prettier than Elizabeth was, but they’re quite similar. Guy Pearce was an excellent choice to play Edward VIII. The lady who played Queen Mary looked like Queen Mary. Even the little girls looked like the young princesses. Michael Gambon nailed George V. You;d think they could have found someone, somewhere, to look like\*\* the single most recognizable character in the film.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/37 "2012-12-13T02:29:29Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > …While there may have been technical reasons why Edward shouldn’t marry Wallis, it boiled down to basically "The People (read The House of Commons) do not approve of her so we forbid you to marry her… There were legal barriers to Wallis & Edward marrying in England. Since the Church of England didn’t recognize divorce it didn’t allow divorced persons to remarry in the Church unless their ex-spouse was dead. Most people in this situtation would just get married in a registeir office, but that wasn’t an option. The Marriage Act, 1836 (which authorized civil marriages in England) specifically _excluded_ members of the royal family. So either Parliament would need to pass a special act allowing Wallis & Edward to marry civily, or they’d need get married in Scotland. Well in theory they could’ve married in England if they had a Quaker or Jewish wedding, but that idea is just ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/38 "2012-12-13T03:11:46Z")
After abdicating Wallis was denied an HRH by the Brits. This infuriated Edward. Normally a wife takes her husband’s rank. Edward demand that people curtsey to his wife when meeting her and treat her royalty. People debated what to do about the situation. Staff obeyed his wishes and curtseyed to her. Some people did and some did not. So the British government had a say in who could call themselves royal and who could not. What had sort of been on the table was the potential for a morgantic marriage. In this kind of marriage a wife does not take her husband’s rank. Any children from the marriage are not eligible to inherit from the husband and do not take the same rank. Edward and Wallis discussed it but it was ultimately deemed not British and decided against. It’s not uncommon in continental European royal families. I think all signs point to Edward simply not wanting to be king. Wallis was not the first married woman he dallied with. She was just his last and best excuse for leaving the throne. He was a stupid, self pitying, childish man who really didn’t want to be a grown up. He may have felt himself unequal to the task physically in some ways as he was probably infertile due to an adolescent bout of mumps. I’ve never seen an indication that he ever fathered a child despite numerous affairs. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/39 "2012-12-13T03:43:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Better to leave Churchill out entirely than to mischaracterize his role, I think. He could easily have been omitted - he wasn’t even Prime Minister when the King gave his climactic speech at the end of the movie; Chamberlain still was. Well they could not have done that, Churchill was quite prominient at the time, but if they had actually shown the historical version, well it would have confused the poor public, most of whom only know about Churchill from that eras personalities. You would expect Churchill to support Albert, but he did not. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669/40 "2012-12-13T03:44:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, none of the Windsors are mental giants, are they? I disagree. Certainly, they’ve had their embarrassments, but even Charles, who’s repeatedly been known to stick his foot in his mouth is known for being quite well-read and intellectually curious. It’s part of the reason he decided to sneak out on his young, blonde trophy wife to shack up with his dear old Dutch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-edward-viii-had-never-met-wallis-simpson/643669.md?page=3)