# What if fascism occurs on an implicit level **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2020, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757 "2020-06-16T04:37:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Askreddit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce73a5/32.png) [@Askreddit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askreddit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/21 "2020-06-16T21:55:46Z")
Hierarchy isnt something you control. Let’s say group A has all the ugly messed up people and Group B has normal people. You can’t change this hierarchy because it already exists. The only change you can make is put group A over group B, which is a Betamale hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/22 "2020-06-16T21:59:35Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > For instance there were poles, Ukrainians and others that killed jews. Soviets never prosecuted their own side. Thry prosecuted germans. They never prosecuted the vast majority of people who killed jews because this majority was their own citizens or allies. So isnt allowing that to happen the same as supporting it. Stalin rebranded Soviet antisemitism to pretend it wasn’t a common trait with the Nazis. No-one has ever said that antisemitism and persecution of jews was an exclusive trait of fascism. Your premises could really use some work here. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/23 "2020-06-16T22:01:06Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > Hierarchy isnt something you control. Let’s say group A has all the ugly messed up people and Group B has normal people. You can’t change this hierarchy because it already exists. The only change you can make is put group A over group B, which is a Betamale hierarchy. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Askreddit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce73a5/32.png) [@Askreddit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askreddit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/24 "2020-06-16T22:03:18Z")
> [@naita](#): > > :smack: Like, you can oppose specific instances or problems with inequality. But inequality as a concept is a zero sum game. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/25 "2020-06-16T22:05:50Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > So basically fascism is a ming the merciless comic book evil with no actual goal, it is all the costs of the welfare state with none of the benefits. Thank you for giving another example of you mis-stating what was said to you, and then arguing against it on that basis. This is intellectually dishonest, and now everyone here has seen you do it more than once. Seriously, do you believe that anyone here believes that Adolf Hitler was “Comic book evil?” Get real. ---
**Author:** ![Askreddit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce73a5/32.png) [@Askreddit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askreddit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/26 "2020-06-16T22:09:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thank you for giving another example of you mis-stating what was said to you, and then arguing against it on that basis. This is intellectually dishonest, and now everyone here has seen you do it more than once. > > Seriously, do you believe that anyone here believes that Adolf Hitler was “Comic book evil?” Get real. I think hitler was just a normal politician who happened to be on the wrong side. Like if Germany voted for FDR would things be any different? Germany had no food, it attacked people because they were starving. Sending specific ethnic groups to concentration camps is just a more organzied way of giving minorities less resources or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/27 "2020-06-16T22:17:57Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > I think hitler was just a normal politician who happened to be on the wrong side. Like if Germany voted for FDR would things be any different? Germany had no food, it attacked people because they were starving. Sending specific ethnic groups to concentration camps is just a more organzied way of giving minorities less resources or whatever. I disagree most vigorously with this. But at least you were honest, and said what _you_ think, instead of presenting a fun-house mirror to what _I_ think. (In my _opinion_, FDR, with German parliamentary support akin to the support he received in the US, would have turned the German economy around, gradually, making a success of it roughly the way he did here, without needing to resort to a major war or the murder of millions. Look at the post-war economic recovery of West Germany as an example of how, from utter devastation, wealth can be restored. Fascism is a very bad tool, a whip to be used against slaves, not an honest wage to reward labor.) ---
**Author:** ![Askreddit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce73a5/32.png) [@Askreddit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askreddit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/28 "2020-06-16T22:18:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I disagree most vigorously with this. But at least you were honest, and said what _you_ think, instead of presenting a fun-house mirror to what _I_ think. > > (In my _opinion_, FDR, with German parliamentary support akin to the support he received in the US, would have turned the German economy around, gradually, making a success of it roughly the way he did here, without needing to resort to a major war or the murder of millions. Look at the post-war economic recovery of West Germany as an example of how, from utter devastation, wealth can be restored. Fascism is a very bad tool, a whip to be used against slaves, not an honest wage to reward labor.) Isnt fascism alleged to be futile. Wasn’t fascism basically the leader in Keynesian economics to the point where some said the terms were synonymous. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/29 "2020-06-16T22:58:39Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > I think hitler was just a normal politician who happened to be on the wrong side. Like if Germany voted for FDR would things be any different? Germany had no food, it attacked people because they were starving. Sending specific ethnic groups to concentration camps is just a more organzied way of giving minorities less resources or whatever. Even among fascists, Hitler was extremely evil. Mussolini didn’t engage in the level of cruelty that Hitler did Not sure how you can compare FDR to Hitler though. While FDR had as part of his voting coalition southern whites who were actively hostile to minority rights (especially black rights), FDR wasn’t in the same league as Hitler. Hitler made military expansionism part of his core philosophy. He set a goal early on to conquer areas he felt should be part of the German empire. FDR didn’t do anything like that to my knowledge. Also there is a huge difference between starvation and waging an expensive war to conquer territory for ideological purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Askreddit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce73a5/32.png) [@Askreddit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askreddit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/30 "2020-06-16T23:45:21Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Even among fascists, Hitler was extremely evil. Mussolini didn’t engage in the level of cruelty that Hitler did > > Not sure how you can compare FDR to Hitler though. While FDR had as part of his voting coalition southern whites who were actively hostile to minority rights (especially black rights), FDR wasn’t in the same league as Hitler. > > Hitler made military expansionism part of his core philosophy. He set a goal early on to conquer areas he felt should be part of the German empire. FDR didn’t do anything like that to my knowledge. > > Also there is a huge difference between starvation and waging an expensive war to conquer territory for ideological purposes. FDR deported legal Mexicans who had been there before the US. If FDR was alive today and held the same opinions he would be considered an extreme neo nazi, even more extreme than most. The neo nazis are just 1940s allied. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/31 "2020-06-17T02:41:31Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > All fascist nations are authoritarian, but not all authoritarian nations are fascist. Simply but very straightly put. “Fascist” has become a sort of catch-all shorthand snarlword for any undesirably illiberal (in the speaker’s judgment) regime that just happens to be not ostensibly marxist/socialist. Sometimes a despotic regime is just a despotic regime, and not really informed by a specific coherent ideology. Oh, and BTW… > [@Askreddit](#): > > Betamale Seriously…? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/32 "2020-06-17T02:52:08Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > I think hitler was just a normal politician who happened to be on the wrong side. Except for that thing where he tried to murder every Jew he could. And that other thing where he killed every German who had even a hint of a handicap. ---
**Author:** ![Askreddit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce73a5/32.png) [@Askreddit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askreddit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/33 "2020-06-17T04:24:59Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Except for that thing where he tried to murder every Jew he could. And that other thing where he killed every German who had even a hint of a handicap. Honestly fdr never said the holocaust was bad. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/34 "2020-06-17T04:47:17Z")
Who cares if it’s “fascism” or some other ism? Coercion. Coercion is bad, period. Coercive power structures should be recognized as such and disparaged as such. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/35 "2020-06-17T05:14:29Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > FDR deported legal Mexicans who had been there before the US. If FDR was alive today and held the same opinions he would be considered an extreme neo nazi, even more extreme than most. The neo nazis are just 1940s allied. Actually, Hoover invented it. :o FDR later didn’t officially sanction “repatriation drives,” but neither did he suppress them, but they stopped during his presidency around 1939. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/36 "2020-06-17T10:07:58Z")
> [@Askreddit](#): > > Honestly fdr never said the holocaust was bad. Askreddit, this looks like intentional trolling. I am suspending you for two days while we discuss your ability to post on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/37 "2020-06-17T15:37:29Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Coercion. Coercion is bad, period. Coercive power structures should be recognized as such and disparaged as such. Well, that’s patently false. You can’t have a functioning society without some degree of coercion. Contracts? Nope, you can’t coerce someone into upholding their end. Law? Nope, you can’t coerce someone into not murdering people. That’s a clownish proposal that fails even rudimentary examination. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/38 "2020-06-17T17:30:39Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Well, that’s patently false. You can’t have a functioning society without some degree of coercion. Contracts? Nope, you can’t coerce someone into upholding their end. Law? Nope, you can’t coerce someone into not murdering people. > > That’s a clownish proposal that fails even rudimentary examination. a) You’re wrong; but so what? b) So deal with it as a matter of degree. Excessive coercion is what makes a bad government oppressive. Not something else. I suppose excessive coercion isn’t the only thing that can make a government _bad_. There could be incompetence. There could be depraved indifference to things that should be commanding the government’s attention. There could be embezzlement, or cronyism. But oppression is the outcome of using force to overwhelm people’s will instead of convincing, using leadership skills, making compromise deals with others. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/39 "2020-06-17T18:16:23Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > a) You’re wrong Easy to throw around. You offer no refutation to my points, however, so your assertion rings hollow. > [@AHunter3](#): > > but > > so what? So what if a society cannot have any form of law or contracts? Do you have any remote understanding of what a society _is_? You transact with strangers in almost every single thing you do. If you have no legal recourse - because any recourse would be coercion - then the next time you hand a cashier a $10 bill, they can just say “Thanks!”, put it in their pocket and refuse to give you the goods and services you were supposedly purchasing. Alternatively, the next time a plumber shows up to a stranger’s house and performs a service, the client could just say “Thanks, now get out” without pay and there would again be no recourse. There would never be a store in such a society, never be plumbers or any other services, and almost no transactions _at all_. Our entire society is premised on the concept of trust. Trust only exists between random strangers because both parties can be held to account. No coercion? Then no accounting. No accounting? No trust. > [@AHunter3](#): > > b) So deal with it as a matter of degree. Excessive coercion is what makes a bad government oppressive. Not something else. Congratulations on shifting your goal post. You said “coercion is bad. period.” Not excessive coercion, you specifically emphasized that **any** coercion is bad. That’s not a question of degrees, it’s a question of sanity and an apparent lack thereof. > [@AHunter3](#): > > But oppression is the outcome of using force to overwhelm people’s will instead of convincing, using leadership skills, making compromise deals with others. Once again someone tries to equivocate definitions like nobody will notice. If you redefine oppression into such a meaningless thing, then oppression isn’t wrong. Look: legos are not evil things. They’re quite fun for kids. This isn’t a controversial statement. But when I redefine “lego” as “nuclear warhead” and try to keep using my new definition with all the connotations of the little plastic bricks, you can see where it gets absurd. With your new definition, I would _not_ say legos are not evil or appropriate for kids. Likewise, with your equivocation of oppression, there is nothing wrong with it. Societies use many different forms of coercion to prevent bad behavior. Period. You murder someone, you go to prison. You steal from someone or break a contract, you indemnify them. And not out of the goodness of your heart, but because society **forces** you to. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757/40 "2020-06-17T18:44:54Z")
Coercion is bad period. But more of it is definitely more bad than less of it. I think some coercion is unavoidable, just as there will always be power differentials when people interact. But there’s a difference between its presence in human interaction and its presence in the design of institutions and how they’re designed to function. There, in particular, incremental increases in equality and democratic participation have made _huge_ differences. I am an anarchist. You do not, however, need to be an anarchist to agree with the above. You can believe that some modicum of coercive enforcement is necessary for social order, that without it someone would come over the proverbial hill and do non-systemic non-structural coercive things. I don’t happen to agree with you there but I am not going to engage — believe what you will on that one. But a classic monarchy in which the King’s voice is absolute is inherently oppressive. The English found it to be so and drew up Magna Carta to put some checks & balances in place against King John, as you’ll recall. The American revolutionary leaders implemented a new form of government a half-millennium later that was founded on the notion that even the far more limited powers exercised by King George and his non-representational Parliament were oppressive, and they put in place structures that were designed to make the governmental apparatus a lot more egalitarian, hence less able to coerce, hence less oppressive. And in the couple-centuries-plus, we have modified those structures significantly, making them yet less coercive, giving more rights and greater democratic participatory role to all the citizens, which means a bit more of their consent is necessary in order for the government to do things that affect them, hence less coercive, more democratic, less oppressive, and better. You got a dissent with that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fascism-occurs-on-an-implicit-level/855757.md?page=3)