# What if fetus == baby **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810 "2003-06-05T13:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/61 "2003-06-06T20:57:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you agree that someone whose “brain dead” condition is not permanent should not be killed? Yes, provided that there was some time in their life earlier that they existed as concious entities. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/62 "2003-06-06T21:33:23Z")
**ElbaliavanU** please show how killing a fetus = homicide? We are talking about the Fetus being considered a baby even 1 second after conception, when it is still a single cell moving towards the womb. I susspect many so called pro-choicers are strongly against the abortion of fetuses that have reached a stage of development where they have a chance of living outside the womb, and some (like myself) would be against abortion once the fetus has developed a significantly functional brain; in all cases but the most dire medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/63 "2003-06-06T21:48:02Z")
[**ElbaliavanU** , are you working for an NGO?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188808) And the point of this thread is to discuss the implications of saying that a fetus is a baby. As others have pointed out, you’d have to name the fetus for records. YOu’d have to record the conception the way we record a birth. Parents could get tax credits and stuff like that. File for extra social assitance. In cases of devorce you’d have to figure out custody. So, now that you’ve joined our little thread, perhaps you’d weigh in on your thoughts of what would change in society if we defined a fetus as being a baby and entitled to all the things a baby gets. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/64 "2003-06-06T21:48:27Z")
**ElbaliavanU** please show how killing a fetus = homicide? We are talking about the Fetus being considered a baby even 1 second after conception, when it is still a single cell moving towards the womb. I susspect many so called pro-choicers are strongly against the abortion of fetuses that have reached a stage of development where they have a chance of living outside the womb, and some (like myself) would be against abortion once the fetus has developed a significantly functional brain; in all cases but the most dire medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/65 "2003-06-06T22:03:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \* > **Why do you think the woman got pregnant? Because she had sex. Do you think sex was a torture for her? If she was raped, yes. Then I could understand why she would be upset about the pregnancy. But if she had sex willingly, she should have considered that she might get pregnant then. If she didn’t, she should just accept the fact that now she has a living being inside of her** Why do people get e. coli? Because they ate hamburger. Do you think eating hamburger was a torture for them? If they were forced to eat it, yes. Then I could understand why they would be upset about the e. coli. But if they ate hamburger willingly, they should have considered that they might get e. coli then. If they didn’t, they should just accept the fact that now they have a living being inside of them. We don’t force people to suffer the results of their innocent actions in other cases. Why is sex different? If you want something even closer: Should we treat a woman for STDs? She had sex knowing she could get an STD. She should just accept the fact that she now has syphillis, right? Julie ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/66 "2003-06-06T22:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \* > **Being pregnant shouldn’t be torture, or a burden! It should be a task that the mother loves.** Sounds good in theory. But what do you propose for mothers who **don’t** love being pregnant? Do you deny that they exist? > [@](#): > > **But if she had sex willingly, she should have considered that she might get pregnant then. If she didn’t, she should just accept the fact that now she has a living being inside of her,** Ah, “pro-life as punishment” rears its ugly head. You had your fun, now it’s time for you to pay the piper! > [@](#): > > **and that baby may grow up to have the cure for cancer or something, and save her life if she gets it! Whoa.** It might also grow up to be the next Hitler. Does that mean she should abort it just in case? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ConnieS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@ConnieS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ConnieS)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/67 "2003-06-06T22:46:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \* > **Alright. This is the STRAIGHT DOPE on abortion:** It’s good to know that somebody has a direct line to The Truth and can therefore easily dismiss any other viewpoints. Some of us had to think long and hard to reach our current positions, and some of us are even foolish and weak enough to admit that our personal truth is not true for everybody. Silly of us, huh? > [@](#): > > \*\* > It is wrong. It is homicide, no matter what. I understand that you MIGHT have to do it if the mother will die (and this should be in VERY RARE cases), but killing a person is homicide, unborn or not. \*\* What is homicide is a matter of the law. According to current laws, abortion is not homicide. You may believe that it _should_ be, and I respect that point of view, but as the situation stands, abortion is not homicide. > [@](#): > > **People might say, “Oh, but a woman has the right to control her body. It’s her body!” I agree, her body is her body. But the fetus, unborn baby, whatever you want to call it, is NOT part of the mother’s body. She is simply providing it nourishment while it grows so that it can survive on it’s own when it is born (And by that I mean breathing and drinking milk from the mother). Take DNA samples from the unborn baby or fetus, and the mother. They are different! OH MY GOSH. THE FETUS IS NOT PART OF THE WOMAN’S BODY!!!** DNA is not the only factor in determining what’s part of a person’s body and what isn’t. Take a look at [this link](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtwinsdna.html): > [@](#): > > **If you and your sibling are identical twins, then you two were pretty close–so close that at one point you were a single cell together, a fertilized egg known as a “zygote.” Usually a zygote, with its complete set of DNA, divides into two cells, then the two cells divide into four, the four into eight, and so on until a human being is formed (OK, that was simplified, but we’ll be here for a semester otherwise). The DNA in each cell is identical.** But identical twins aren’t living in a single body. Neither is a fetus or embryo (or ‘unborn child,’ if you want to call it that) simply living in a woman’s body; it’s using that body as a life support system. It’s building itself from that body. > [@](#): > > **Being pregnant shouldn’t be torture, or a burden! It should be a task that the mother loves. Thinking "Wow, I am taking care of an unborn child… Inside me! I have the responsibility of taking care of this child, and I love it! I love my baby."** No, being pregnant _shouldn’t_ be a torture or a burden. It should be quick and easy: stick the sperm in, watch your belly swell up, then pop a kid out–oh, let’s say a month later. There shouldn’t be any pain, either. And while we’re at it, let’s make pregnancy consensual, too–pop up a little ‘Would you like a child? Yes/No’ message to any potential mothers to be, sort of like in the computer game the Sims. But that’s a fantasy. In real life, many women _don’t_ want to spend nine months being pregnant, then give birth to a child. Some of them would rather die. Others might go through with it if they absolutely had to, but it would be a miserable experience, and that miserable experience would pervert any chance they had of having a loving experience with pregnancy later. Rape victims often have trouble relating sexually to people after their trauma; I wouldn’t be surprised to find that women who’ve been forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term have trouble accepting that a wanted pregnancy is a joyous thing. It doesn’t help to tell them that they _should_ love the unborn child growing within them. _Should_ isn’t _is_, and no amount of saying will make it so. Some women simply don’t want children. Others want children later in their life, but not now. If I became pregnant now, as a teenager with lots of life decisions lying in front of me waiting to be dealt with, I would certainly abort. Say I do give birth in this situation: what’s the result? Sum total: one destroyed life (mine) and one new, unwanted life waiting in adoption services to see if anyone does want it. Now, say ten years from now, in my late twenties, I accidentally become pregnant. Say that, additionally, I have a steady source of income from a partner, and that I can quit my job or take maternity leave from it without driving myself into poverty. Also, say that I feel myself capable of taking care of a child. Then I’d most likely give birth. I’d be able to experience the joyful aspects of pregnancy as I wouldn’t be able to now. I’d be able to bring a new life into a world where it’s _wanted_. > [@](#): > > **If you would want to have an abortion, don’t have sex in the first place! I know most women who get abortions are unmarried.** Cite? (I’m willing to believe this, by the way–it makes sense that an unmarried woman would be less likely to be able to support a child, financially and emotionally. But I’d like to see a cite, all the same.) I also know, just from reading the comments of childfree posters to this board, that some women are either married or quite willing to get married when they find the right man, but they most emphatically do _not_ want children. It simply isn’t the right choice for them–they have no desire for children, no desire to become pregnant, and no desire to be a mother. > [@](#): > > **And that brings up another point- Don’t have sex before marriage! It’s wrong and only brings heartache.** If you’re going to argue that sex before marriage is wrong, start a new thread for it. It’s hardly something that can’t be disputed. Plus, saying that it “only brings heartache” is an overgeneralization. Anyone who’s had sex before marriage and not suffered ill effects care to post? A statement like that can be disproved with a single example. > [@](#): > > **"What if a fetus is a baby?" Why wouldn’t it be? Tell me one GOOD reason why a fetus should not be considered a baby. It is a fetus becase it is unborn. It looks the exact same inside the mother’s body right before it is born AND just after it is born! It’s not just a blob of flesh 5 minutes before birth, and then all of a sudden it develops human features!** Don’t throw out strawmen like that; nobody here has claimed that they support the right of a woman to have an abortion “5 minutes before birth.” Assuming that’s hyperbole and you mean it to refer to all late-term abortions, it’s still questionable; supporting a woman’s right to an abortion doesn’t necessarily mean supporting a woman’s right to an abortion once the fetus has become viable. At that point, I’d be willing to concede the necessity of limits on abortion. As for your question, a good look at the development of a fetus is in order. I’m using [this page](http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/25370/25666.html) for reference. In the first trimester (that is, the first three months), it’s not even a fetus yet–it’s an embryo. Its developing heart doesn’t begin to beat until sometime in the second month. At that point, its head has barely started forming; it doesn’t even resemble a baby in its shape. It doesn’t start to move until the third month, which is also the point where its spine and internal organs begin forming. At this point, there’s some resemblance in shape to a baby. In the fourth month, the arms and legs are clear enough for fingers and toes to be counted. In the fifth month, all major organs are formed, although not finished developing. Toenails and teeth form; hair becomes visible. The fetus’s movements can now be felt. In the sixth month, the fetus responds to loud noises and music. The end of the sixth month marks the end of the second trimester. At this point, there are still some differences between a fetus and a baby, but they’re not as obvious as the earlier ones, and it’s less important to point them out, since, as I said, I would be willing to concede the necessity of limits on abortion at this point, especially once the fetus is viable, because at that point, it no longer relies on the woman’s body for life support. > [@](#): > > \*\*Think about it. \*\* I _have_ thought about it, and not just casually, either. I only reached my current position after a lot of consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/68 "2003-06-06T23:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Yes, provided that there was some time in their life earlier that they existed as concious entities. \*\* Blalron, you are getting really good at crafting definitions of rights and life so that no matter what, abortion is permissible. Never mind that the distinctions you continue to draw aren’t meaningful. Why is prior consciousness important? Because otherwise we couldn’t have abortions. Excellent example of circular reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/69 "2003-06-07T13:11:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Degrance \* > \*\*It would mean that life expectancy would take a serious hit. Approxiamtely 1 in 3 conceptions end in a miscarriage. What would it do to life expectancy stats if one third of all humans died before their birth date? \*\* Can you cite source on the 1 in 3 figure? Seems a trifle high to me. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/70 "2003-06-07T23:44:43Z")
Actually, does anyone has a cite or reference on the percentage for miscarriages? I would love to hear an actually figure quoted some where. ---
**Author:** ![ronbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@ronbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronbo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/71 "2003-06-08T00:05:51Z")
I suggest the following situation: Its a cold night, you invite a homeless person into your house. The next day you force him to leave. He dies that night. Is that murder? When a fetus becomes a person is not relavent. No one has the right to live at another’s expense. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/72 "2003-06-08T00:10:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Blalron, you are getting really good at crafting definitions of rights and life so that no matter what, abortion is permissible. Never mind that the distinctions you continue to draw aren’t meaningful. Why is prior consciousness important? Because otherwise we couldn’t have abortions. Excellent example of circular reasoning. \*\* What these abortion discussions have forced me to do is think about what makes killing wrong, and what makes an individual human worthy of protection from harm. I can’t go with the argument that possessing human DNA, in and of itself, makes an entity a unique individual worthy of protection. If human cloning becomes possible, every cell of our bodies could potentially grow up to be a unique human being. But that’s what those cells are, _potentials_. They are not actuals. Since defining personhood by DNA fails, I am forced to conclude that what makes us as individuals unique and worthy of protection must be our conciousness, our unique sense of self. Our identity. “ **I think, therefore I am** ” After coming to this conclusion, I have another consideration: We all have to sleep for about a third of our lives, and during this sleep state we are not concious. Why can’t we kill somebody when they are asleep? Because the already have an identity that can be destroyed. The personhood of Bob Cos exists even when he is asleep. Humankind feels an injury when he is killed, because that identity has been extinguished forever. Going back to our human cells and cloning example, if I kill a red blood cell I have killed a _potential_ human identity. But humanity doesn’t feel the injury, because no actual identity ever existed. We can go into speculation as to what loss may have occurred here, but nobody can be sure what that loss was. However, there is no speculation as to what loss would occur if I killed Bob in his sleep. Everybody who knows him knows what has been lost. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/73 "2003-06-08T00:32:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ConnieS \* > \*\* > Don’t throw out strawmen like that; nobody here has claimed that they support the right of a woman to have an abortion “5 minutes before birth.” \*\* **ronbo** > [@](#): > > When a fetus becomes a person is not relavent. No one has the right to live at another’s expense. Which of course means abortion up to birth event (at least) would be groovy. And I’ve seen plenty of other folks say similar things (such as …it didn’t matter if it was David Letterman inside the uterus…location was the only thing that mattered) I don’t know what percentage of “pro choice” folks feel that location is the **only** issue, and who feel that development doesn’t matter. I’ve seen quite a few expressing that opinion here on these boards though…with nary a peep of objection from “pro choice” folks who say that stages of development **do** matter. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/74 "2003-06-08T00:41:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\*Actually, does anyone has a cite or reference on the percentage for miscarriages? I would love to hear an actually figure quoted some where. \*\* Here is one [Cite](http://www.healthsquare.com/fgwh/wh1ch27.htm) > [@](#): > > As many as 30 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, half of them before the woman even realizes she is pregnant. Originally from PDR Guide To Women’s Health OTOH, [this](http://www.rscbayarea.com/articles/gonalf.html) source claims 15% miscarriage rate in general population. [This](http://www.rscbayarea.com/articles/gonalf.html) says 15-20 % As does [this](http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZJESDP97C&sub_cat=3) one. And [this](http://www.babycenter.com/glossary/M.html) one. FWIW I’ve always heard the figure 20% (as a ceiling) tossed around…30% seems high IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/75 "2003-06-08T00:57:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\* Why can’t we kill somebody when they are asleep? \*\* Who says we can’t? The reason it’s illegal is because we don’t all individually want to have to set up heavy security, carry weapons, and arrange for our own and our loved ones’ security, when it’s easier to pass a collective law, hire law enforcement, specify punishment, and whittle potential killers down to those willing to do the time or the chair, go on the lam, or plan very very hard. We as a society decide which killings we want to be against the law. At the moment, abortion isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/76 "2003-06-08T01:54:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Who says we can’t? The reason it’s illegal is because we don’t all individually want to have to set up heavy security, carry weapons, and arrange for our own and our loved ones’ security, when it’s easier to pass a collective law, hire law enforcement, specify punishment, and whittle potential killers down to those willing to do the time or the chair, go on the lam, or plan very very hard. We as a society decide which killings we want to be against the law. At the moment, abortion isn’t one of them. When I use “can’t” I don’t mean the definition of can that implies ability to do something, I’m using the definition of can used to indicate possession of a specified power, right, or privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/77 "2003-06-08T11:15:47Z")
Blalron, I have never heard anyone argue that sleeping turned one into a non-sentient being, one whose killing could be ethical. And that’s not what we were discussing before. We were discussing entities who had no brain activity, flat-liners, so to speak. So, if a “brain dead” adult who will recover (e.g., a patient with hypothermia) cannot be ethically destroyed, why doesn’t this apply to a fetus? That was the question. As for this… > [@](#): > > \*\*Going back to our human cells and cloning example, if I kill a red blood cell I have killed a potential human identity. But humanity doesn’t feel the injury, because no actual identity ever existed. We can go into speculation as to what loss may have occurred here, but nobody can be sure what that loss was. > > However, there is no speculation as to what loss would occur if I killed Bob in his sleep. Everybody who knows him knows what has been lost. \*\*…why is this distinction important, except that it permits abortion? Would you permit the murder of a hypothetical hermit, a survivalist you stumbled across in the wilderness who has no contact with the world? Do you prohibit any abortion where someone in the world would feel a sense of loss–say, if it was felt by the unborn child’s grandmother? And if you answer with, “Not if the mother disagrees,” then please don’t advance arguments that you yourself feel ultimately carry no weight. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/78 "2003-06-08T14:49:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*When I use “can’t” I don’t mean the definition of can that implies ability to do something, I’m using the definition of can used to indicate possession of a specified power, right, or privilege. \*\* Well my point was that I don’t believe that the reason we can’t legally kill a person is that he has an identity that can be destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![ElbaliavanU](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@ElbaliavanU](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElbaliavanU)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/79 "2003-06-08T18:27:55Z")
Alright everyone. Now that I’ve joined, I guess I have to argue with everyone against me… Yay!! 🙂 Blalron: “If human cloning became common, and the fetus had exactly the same DNA as the mother, would she then have the right to choose?” I would say no. Even if it does have the same DNA, the person is not depending on the “source” for support, so, in essence, it is another human being. I don’t even think cloning is right in the first place… God is the only one who can create people without taking a DNA sample from the mother… But that’s a different topic. ConnieS: You have some very good ideas. I like the way your mind works… Unfortunately there are some ideas that you might not quite understand… “What is homicide is a matter of the law. According to current laws, abortion is not homicide. You may believe that it should be, and I respect that point of view, but as the situation stands, abortion is not homicide.” Yes, according to laws made by humans, abortion is NOT homicide. That is unfortunate for the unborn babies who NEVER GOT A CHANCE TO LIVE. Whether you know it or not, or believe it or not, or just think that I’m some psycho throwing all my “ideas” at you- abortion is wrong. Ask God when you die… We’ll all know the truth then. Julie: I understand the point you are trying to make with the hamburger thing. But do all people who eat hamburgers get e. coli? No. Do all women who have sex get pregnant? No. Do all women who do get pregnant get abortions? No. I don’t even know what e. coli is, but I’m pretty sure that not as many people get it when they eat hamburgers as women get pregnant when they have sex. It is different from having sex because there are vegetarians out there. And I know that there are people who don’t have sex. But if you had a hamburger with e. coli you could throw it out, and it wouldn’t be considered homicide. Why? Because it isn’t alive!!! Yes, the woman should just accept the fact that she has syphilis. She should have considered the fact that she could get it before having sex. I am assuming she wasn’t married because wouldn’t you and your partner go to a doctor to see if the other person has anything before you have sex? You reap what you sow, Julie, good or bad. Emacknight: Have you ever considered that the woman might have a miscarriage? Then all that work for custody and all the other stuff that you did would be for NOTHING. That’s why you should wait until after the birth of the child to do all of those things. Mr2001, what are you talking about? Do I deny that they exist??? OK then… A mother doesn’t HAVE to enjoy being pregnant, but she should make the best of the situation. Yes, that baby could grow up to be the next Hitler. I did think of that, I don’t know why I didn’t mention it… But you really should give the baby a chance. It’s not fair to just “assume” what it will be- cure for cancer, or Hitler. That’s why we need to give the babies a chance. “Ah, ‘pro-life as punishment’ rears its ugly head. You had your fun, now it’s time for you to pay the piper!” You reap what you sow. I hope I answered all the questions 🙂 Until next time… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810/80 "2003-06-08T23:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \* > **Mr2001, what are you talking about? Do I deny that they exist??? OK then… A mother doesn’t HAVE to enjoy being pregnant, but she should make the best of the situation.** That doesn’t make sense. Would you “make the best” of a broken leg, or pneumonia? Do you not realize that pregnancy has severe physical effects, and that it results in a person who has to be supported, physically and emotionally, for 18 years, or that not everyone _wants_ to go through that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-fetus-baby/179810.md?page=5)