# What if Frodo had died at Weathertop? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200 "2015-01-29T05:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/21 "2015-01-29T18:20:25Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > The options at the councile would have remained the same: > > Send it over the sea > Hide it > Use it > Destroy it > > The first wont work and the third leaves the world in the same state as a loss to Sauron. > > So we’re down to hiding the ring and hoping at some point in the future the ability to temporarily cast down Sauron occurs. At that point the “destroy it” portion kicks in otherwise Sauron simply marshals his strength and returns. The problem however is that the will and ability to resist Sauron is already diminished and there’s no indication that greater strength will occur in the future. > > Destroy it would remain the plan but in my view, lacking Frodo’s choice to shoulder the burden, the quest would fail. I suppose you could argue that given the eventual triumph of the 3rd theme a new opportunity would appear but I doubt it. Why wouldn’t the first work? Would the Valar simply have sank any ship that approached containing the One Ring? Would they sense it? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/22 "2015-01-29T18:23:40Z")
50 pages on the new creoles created after the Orcs subjugated all the other races. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/23 "2015-01-29T18:35:03Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why wouldn’t the first work? Would the Valar simply have sank any ship that approached containing the One Ring? Would they sense it? We’re told explicitly in the council by Elrond that “…they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it." ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/24 "2015-01-29T19:02:36Z")
I do want to mention something that’s kind of bugged me for awhile. Isildur carried the Ring around for two years without (apparently) conquering the Middle-Earth or seeming to have any great designs. He must not have experimented with it much since he could only use it to turn invisible at Gladden Fields. And according to Wikipedia, “Realized his mistake in keeping it and intended to return it to the Elves” Now…sure he probably would have changed his mind at some point and the only fanwank reason I can give why he wasn’t overcome by the Ring is that Isildur is a legendary figure. Think Aragorn times 100. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/25 "2015-01-29T19:05:40Z")
Feed it to a troll (hide it in a goat) and expose the troll to sunlight. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/26 "2015-01-29T19:12:00Z")
> [@xizor](#): > > Had Frodo died, Gollum would surely have not lasted as long as he did. Sam would have killed him at their first encounter. This. I think Sam would have taken it, all the way to the lava, but he probably would have faltered at the same moment as Frodo did and there would be no Gollum to help. I know Sam was strong and even carried the ring for a while and is one of the only two (? IIRC) characters who gave up the ring voluntarily, but to carry it all that way…I think in the end, the Dark Lord would have triumphed. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/27 "2015-01-29T19:21:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Feed it to a troll (hide it in a goat) and expose the troll to sunlight. Along comes an unsuspecting mason with a low willpower and… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/28 "2015-01-29T19:30:59Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > They could hand it off to the eagles. Then LOTR would be a novella. Yep, since the Will of Sauron would stop the Eagles dead in their tracks, and the Nazgul just fly up there and kill them. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/29 "2015-01-29T19:35:43Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Along comes an unsuspecting mason with a low willpower and… And manages to chisel it out in the next couple of ages. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/30 "2015-01-29T20:14:53Z")
Is the general theory that even with ring hidden away, Sauron would still win? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/31 "2015-01-29T20:39:59Z")
I have said this before with more or less degrees of bitchiness, but the Eagles are not Middle Earth’s taxi service. They don’t come when called. They came to Gandalf because they owed him a number of favors but to fly into Mordor before Sauron was vanquished is almost literally akin to flying into Hell - there isn’t a favor big enough. Plus if you were Sauron and you saw a bunch of fatass Eagles flying toward your Tower of Doom you’d damn well get not just the Nazgul over there but every catapult, ballista, and other machine of war you could find. Remember how technogically savvy the Orcs and such were, with their machines? In contrast, two Hobbits on foot were a totally unprecedented move and one the Enemy never even thought of in his arrogance and conceit. So please stop assuming the Eagles were anyone’s bitches. They were proud and regal creatures themselves. Yaargh! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/32 "2015-01-29T20:44:25Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I have said this before with more or less degrees of bitchiness, but the Eagles are not Middle Earth’s taxi service. They don’t come when called. They came to Gandalf because they owed him a number of favors but to fly into Mordor before Sauron was vanquished is almost literally akin to flying into Hell - there isn’t a favor big enough. Plus if you were Sauron and you saw a bunch of fatass Eagles flying toward your Tower of Doom you’d damn well get not just the Nazgul over there but every catapult, ballista, and other machine of war you could find. Remember how technogically savvy the Orcs and such were, with their machines? > > In contrast, two Hobbits on foot were a totally unprecedented move and one the Enemy never even thought of in his arrogance and conceit. So please stop assuming the Eagles were anyone’s bitches. They were proud and regal creatures themselves. Well, I have fought this battle too, ever since some joker thought it was funny and said “Well just have the eagles fly it over and drop it!”. \*It was a joke, son. \* [https://forums.oneplus.net/attachments/foghorn-leghorn-meme-generator-its-a-joke-son-a-joke-712f6e-jpg.53379/](https://forums.oneplus.net/attachments/foghorn-leghorn-meme-generator-its-a-joke-son-a-joke-712f6e-jpg.53379/) ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/33 "2015-01-29T20:53:30Z")
If Frodo hadn’t been there Sam never would have spoken up to volunteer to take it like Frodo did. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/34 "2015-01-29T20:57:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, I have fought this battle too, ever since some joker thought it was funny and said “Well just have the eagles fly it over and drop it!”. \*It was a joke, son. \* > > [https://forums.oneplus.net/attachments/foghorn-leghorn-meme-generator-its-a-joke-son-a-joke-712f6e-jpg.53379/](https://forums.oneplus.net/attachments/foghorn-leghorn-meme-generator-its-a-joke-son-a-joke-712f6e-jpg.53379/) Well… how about a catapult? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/35 "2015-01-29T20:59:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is the general theory that even with ring hidden away, Sauron would still win? Likely, but not certainly. OK, the battle of Minas Tirith still ends in a big Win for the Good guys. But as you can see at the Battle of the Morannon, Sauron was by no means out of troops. Aragorn et al, have pretty well pulled all their tricks out of their sleeves. The Dead Men of Dunharrow have fulfilled their oaths. So, taking out the Dark Lord out of Mordor is pretty much a no-go. Aragorn could fortify Osgilath. But who is going to regain their power faster? The Dark Lord or the forces of Light? True, the Alliance also won the Battle of Dale, Battle of Mirkwood and the Siege of Lórien. But Sauron coudl recoup his losses faster- except perhaps the Witch-King. Which brings up the issue of _did the Nazgul wear their rings?_ If not, could Sauron just make a new Nazgul? If so, then what? At best you have a long drawn out war. Meanwhile the Shire is destroyed by Sharky. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/36 "2015-01-29T20:59:33Z")
I don’t think the quest is 100% doomed if Frodo can’t be the ring-bearer. Faramir, Bilbo and Sam all possessed the ring and were able to return it. Faramir is proof that it’s not just a natural hobbit immunity, and Frodo himself is proof that even hobbits can be overcome eventually. We also see characters like Boromir who are mastered by the ring without even touching it, yet Aragorn and Gandalf are both able to escort a ring-bearer even if they do not trust themselves to bear it directly. So I’m lead to the conclusion that someone might have been found who could replace Frodo. Frodo is exceptional, but not entirely unique. In fact, Frodo himself proves unable to complete the quest when he finally arrives in Mordor; it is only completed “on accident” by Gollum. No one at the council of Elrond could precisely foresee that turn of events. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/37 "2015-01-29T21:09:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, I have fought this battle too, ever since some joker thought it was funny and said “Well just have the eagles fly it over and drop it!”. \*It was a joke, son. \* > > [https://forums.oneplus.net/attachments/foghorn-leghorn-meme-generator-its-a-joke-son-a-joke-712f6e-jpg.53379/](https://forums.oneplus.net/attachments/foghorn-leghorn-meme-generator-its-a-joke-son-a-joke-712f6e-jpg.53379/) I know it was a joke. I just needed to say what I said. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/38 "2015-01-29T21:15:26Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I know it was a joke. I just needed to say what I said. 🙂 I knew that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/39 "2015-01-29T21:15:47Z")
My first question when reading the OP was, at what point did anybody but Frodo & Gandalf know that Frodo was carrying the ring? Did Sam know he had it? True, he said > [@Sam](#): > > That is, I heard a good deal about a ring, and a Dark Lord, and something about the end of the world, but… Please, Mr. Gandalf, sir, don’t hurt me. Don’t turn me into anything… unnatural. but he was quite a ninny, and I could totally see him wanting to bury Frodo with his ring “because that’s what he would have wanted.” Was the mission that everybody knew “get to Rivendell” or “get THE RING to Rivendell?” Imagine the look on Gandalf’s face if they showed up without Frodo… “What’s that, Gandalf? Frodo? I’m sorry, but he got stabbed & died. We buried him at Weathertop. Gandalf? Gandalf? Where’d he go?” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/40 "2015-01-29T21:20:20Z")
A more interesting thought experiment, as **carnivorousplant** alludes to (and what an appropriate username!) is what happens if Sam gets the ring, goes crazy, and becomes Master of it? Let’s ignore Sauron in this possibility, or even say that Sam somehow defeats Sauron. I know, I know, the ring is Sauron’s, so it’s always trying to get back to him. Still… Would everyone in Middle Earth be servants to the Earth? Would we all be weeding? Gardening? Or more likely, IMO, he might kill everything that wasn’t a plant - a sort of Tolkien Poison Ivy. Thoughts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200.md?page=3)