# What if Frodo had died at Weathertop? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200 "2015-01-29T05:19:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/41 "2015-01-29T21:23:10Z")
Well, it’s not like Gollum became the Fish King… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/42 "2015-01-29T21:35:01Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Well, it’s not like Gollum became the Fish King… Is it crunchable? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/43 "2015-01-29T21:49:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Would the Valar simply have sank any ship that approached containing the One Ring? Even if they do, that puts the Ring at the bottom of the ocean, which may be the least worst outcome available at that point. No one ever dredged the Silmaril out of the sea, after all. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/44 "2015-01-29T21:49:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I have said this before with more or less degrees of bitchiness, but the Eagles are not Middle Earth’s taxi service. They don’t come when called. They came to Gandalf because they owed him a number of favors but to fly into Mordor before Sauron was vanquished is almost literally akin to flying into Hell - there isn’t a favor big enough. Plus if you were Sauron and you saw a bunch of fatass Eagles flying toward your Tower of Doom you’d damn well get not just the Nazgul over there but every catapult, ballista, and other machine of war you could find. Remember how technogically savvy the Orcs and such were, with their machines? > > In contrast, two Hobbits on foot were a totally unprecedented move and one the Enemy never even thought of in his arrogance and conceit. So please stop assuming the Eagles were anyone’s bitches. They were proud and regal creatures themselves. > > Yaargh! This brings up an interesting question. Why didn’t the eagles _want_ to destroy the ring? In the story, there are many who knew of the ring and many reactions towards it. Men were easily pulled to its power and corrupted, elves feared it and tried to avoid it. Dwarves would have probably tried to use it, falling into the same trap as Man. Obviously the creatures siding with Sauron would have kept or returned it to their master, but eagles were an intelligent race. They were worldly and knew of the lands beyond Middle Earth. I think they were personally created by Manwe or something. Why didn’t they want to destroy the ring? Why weren’t they at the Council of Elrond with a representative? Or was Tolkien not interested in the “animals” of the world, thinking they only lived to serve the humanoid species? ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/45 "2015-01-29T21:50:22Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Well… how about a catapult? That’s retarded, Boromir. 😉 > [@Ethilrist](#): > > My first question when reading the OP was, at what point did anybody but Frodo & Gandalf know that Frodo was carrying the ring? Did Sam know he had it? True, he said > > but he was quite a ninny, and I could totally see him wanting to bury Frodo with his ring “because that’s what he would have wanted.” Was the mission that everybody knew “get to Rivendell” or “get THE RING to Rivendell?” > > Imagine the look on Gandalf’s face if they showed up without Frodo… “What’s that, Gandalf? Frodo? I’m sorry, but he got stabbed & died. We buried him at Weathertop. Gandalf? Gandalf? Where’d he go?” No, in the chapter “A Conspiracy Unmasked” we learn that Pippin and Merry know about the Ring, and that it needs to get to Rivendell urgently - and they have ponies and supplied all ready for a quick exit from the Shire. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/46 "2015-01-29T21:54:17Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > A more interesting thought experiment, as **carnivorousplant** alludes to (and what an appropriate username!) is what happens if Sam gets the ring, goes crazy, and becomes Master of it? Let’s ignore Sauron in this possibility, or even say that Sam somehow defeats Sauron. I know, I know, the ring is Sauron’s, so it’s always trying to get back to him. Still… > Would everyone in Middle Earth be servants to the Earth? Would we all be weeding? Gardening? Or more likely, IMO, he might kill everything that wasn’t a plant - a sort of Tolkien Poison Ivy. > > Thoughts? You’re going to have to go further than that for him to become the master of the ring, instead of just using it like Gollum or Bilbo did. The idea is that dominating large groups of people has to be in your nature, since all the ring can do is corrupt your nature. So only your Poision Ivy scenario makes sense to me, at about the same authority level as well. Though he doesn’t kill everyone, just like Poison Ivy doesn’t. He kills those that harm the plants. Though, since he’s a gardener and not a botanist, I think it may play out differently. Gardening includes harvesting. And Sam is ultimately pretty heroic in temperament, as stated by Tolkien himself, so I think he’d be corrupted more in the way of Galadriel or Gandalf would. I’d see him initially using the ring to make food to feed the hungry, in a rather small community since he’s really not all that ambitious, and also using his powers to defend the village. He might also outlaw hunting or getting food from anywhere else, making him more a defended of animals, the opposite of Poison Ivy But he’s still fairly localized, since he’s a hobbit and hobbits naturally think small, preferring to hide in a fairly small community. It’s only when he harms the wrong person that things get bigger. Once his village gets attacked, that’s when he releases his powers and starts spreading. That’s when everyone is forced to eat his food and only his food. Now, I am not well enough versed in LOTR to take it further, and figure out how he would be defeated. I will point out that, as plant-king, he’d be actually impeding on Tom Bombadil’s turf. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/47 "2015-01-29T21:54:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This brings up an interesting question. Why didn’t the eagles _want_ to destroy the ring? As Elrond pointed out, the Ring is a problem that the people of Middle-Earth need to fix; not a problem for the Valar to fix. The Eagles are servants of Manwë – like the Istari, they’re allowed to _help_ the people of Middle-Earth solve their problems, but are not to actually do the solving themselves. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/48 "2015-01-29T22:29:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You’re going to have to go further than that for him to become the master of the ring, instead of just using it like Gollum or Bilbo did. The idea is that dominating large groups of people has to be in your nature, since all the ring can do is corrupt your nature. > > So only your Poision Ivy scenario makes sense to me, at about the same authority level as well. Though he doesn’t kill everyone, just like Poison Ivy doesn’t. He kills those that harm the plants. > > Though, since he’s a gardener and not a botanist, I think it may play out differently. Gardening includes harvesting. And Sam is ultimately pretty heroic in temperament, as stated by Tolkien himself, so I think he’d be corrupted more in the way of Galadriel or Gandalf would. I’d see him initially using the ring to make food to feed the hungry, in a rather small community since he’s really not all that ambitious, and also using his powers to defend the village. He might also outlaw hunting or getting food from anywhere else, making him more a defended of animals, the opposite of Poison Ivy Sam, the hobbit who cooked the brace of coneys that Gollum brought him, a defender of animals? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/49 "2015-01-30T00:22:38Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Sam, the hobbit who cooked the brace of coneys that Gollum brought him, a defender of animals? I’m assuming he has plant powers. I don’t think he would defend animals because he likes them, but because, once he’s controlling plants, he’d want everyone to eat the stuff he made. Killing animals to eat instead would seem ungrateful. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/50 "2015-01-30T01:09:08Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > My first question when reading the OP was, at what point did anybody but Frodo & Gandalf know that Frodo was carrying the ring? As already noted, Merry and Pippin knew. Aragorn also knew, since he makes a comment in Bree about Frodo being insufficiently careful with what he carried. So, no chance of the ring being casually discarded. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/51 "2015-01-30T01:29:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is the general theory that even with ring hidden away, Sauron would still win? The Ring wanted to go back to Sauron. I’m guessing the most effective means of holding it back was for some other being to own it and actively resist its attempts to reunite with Sauron. Dumping it in the bottom of the ocean might have seemed like a good idea but it really would have been freeing the Ring. It would no longer have had anyone working against its attempts to get back to Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/52 "2015-01-30T05:11:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’m assuming he has plant powers. I don’t think he would defend animals because he likes them, but because, once he’s controlling plants, he’d want everyone to eat the stuff he made. Killing animals to eat instead would seem ungrateful. The Hobbits would never have gained the kind of world-shaking power that Galadriel talked about. Claiming the Ring would have just led to the nazgul cutting their finger off. Gollum wore the Ring for over 500 years and gained no great power. Isildur also seemed to gain no earth shaking power during the couple years he kept it. Bilbo kept the Ring for about 60 years and gained no powers- altho his life span was greatly increased. per wiki “To master all of the Ring’s capabilities, a Ring wielder would need a disciplined and well-trained mind, a strong will, and great native power. Those with weaker minds, such as Hobbits and lesser Men, would gain little benefit from the Ring, let alone realize its full potential. Even for someone with the necessary strength it would have taken time to master the Ring’s power to the point where he was strong enough to overthrow Sauron.[9]” I guess perhaps Isildur, being of Númenórean blood, might have been able to gain great power from the Ring- given enough time. Sam? Never. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/53 "2015-01-30T06:04:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > . . . Gollum wore the Ring for over 500 years and gained no great power. . . . He never really tried, though. If he had shown himself openly in front of the goblins in the caverns, and commanded them to obey him…it might have worked. (Maybe he’d start with a detachment of lost goblins, and build up, squad, platoon, battalion, etc.) Look how far Napoleon Bonaparte got without the Ring! ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/54 "2015-01-30T08:33:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why wouldn’t the first work? Would the Valar simply have sank any ship that approached containing the One Ring? Would they sense it? They wouldn’t need to sink the ship. Since the Whelming of Numenor, the world has been round, and it’s only by grace that even the ships of the Elves are able to sail into the West by the “Straight Way”. If the Valar don’t want a ship to arrive, then the world remains round for that ship. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/55 "2015-01-30T14:13:40Z")
I hate this thread. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/56 "2015-01-30T15:25:34Z")
If Frodo had made it to Rivendell but still died from the effects of the attack – this opens up the possibility of a very different story, yet one still within the framework of the one we know. What if Arwen volunteered to take the ring? Her brothers have been actively working to protect the North and why shouldn’t she. Just because she’s lovely and makes banners doesn’t mean she can’t go off to avenge her mother, or live up to her legacy as Galadriel’s granddaughter. Anyway in this scenario Pippin, Merry and Sam talk their way into going along to represent the Shire and avenge Frodo. Thus the stories with the Ents, Theoden and Denethor go much as before. Arwen & Aragorn’s relationship could be one of a duo like Beren and Luthien (hope I got those name right) – or Aragorn, feeling Arwen is on a suicide mission, lets her go on alone, gets involved with Eowyn, etc. Anyway, no need to go into all details, but this is my idea for the story if Frodo died at Rivendell. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/57 "2015-01-30T17:11:04Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > I hate this thread. I know, it’s like a dagger to your heart, eh?😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/58 "2015-01-30T17:13:03Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > If Frodo had made it to Rivendell but still died from the effects of the attack – this opens up the possibility of a very different story, yet one still within the framework of the one we know. What if Arwen volunteered to take the ring? Arwen is one of the Wise. It’d be like Galadriel taking the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/59 "2015-01-30T17:53:51Z")
Post 55 and 56 username combo for the win! ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200/60 "2015-01-31T04:43:38Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > He never really tried, though. If he had shown himself openly in front of the goblins in the caverns, and commanded them to obey him…it might have worked. (Maybe he’d start with a detachment of lost goblins, and build up, squad, platoon, battalion, etc.) > > Look how far Napoleon Bonaparte got without the Ring! Gollum thought with his stomach, though. Those little lost goblins were just crunchy treats to him. Crunchy, tasty treats, precious. > [@Frodo](#): > > I hate this thread. There, there. I do not think Sam would take the ring. The council would have no reason to believe he was capable and I doubt Sam would even want to since he was only on the quest for Frodo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-frodo-had-died-at-weathertop/711200.md?page=4)