How do I know its God?
Because God never leaves.
Power and traits?
The usual, all loving, all powerful, all knowing, etc.
Since my primary Deity is the Trickster, it’s sort of a given that you can never really be sure it’s Him. Or Her. Or It. Depending on how ol’ Tricky is feeling that day.
But also - a lot of strange happenings and coincidences would be going on in the neighborhood. Sort of like how the eye of the storm is defined by what isn’t there, the one cool dude/dudette that isn’t thrown by the chaos around the neighborhood - that’s the One.
This is not so difficult to answer. It depends on what you were taught as a child growing up in a cultural environment you grew up in. So if Rajeev from Bombay, Ali from Damascus and Juan from Ciudad Mexico were taking acid together, they would hallucinate the images they are familiar with from the indoctrination they received in their own culture and religion. A fantasy does not necessarily have to be uniquely created by an individual, it can be ingrained and taught in childhood, the basis for religion. This is also how myths occur. In Europe there were myths of trolls and gnomes and all manner of creatures believed to live in the wilderness pestering humans in one way or another. Today, just about everyone agrees these are just stories, fantasies if you will. A few hundred years ago, people believed these were real. Today, you still have myths and stories people believe in. For example, the chupacabra has become a popular creature in Latin America and many people are certain of its existence. In the US, a substantial number of people believe in alien visitors and abductors. Many people are convinced they have been abducted. On the religious side, the Virgin Mary makes appearances on a regular basis especially for Catholics. In all instances there is a complete lack of evidence. Unfortunately, some people want to believe so badly that they end up seeing or experiencing events that are pure fantasy. Strangely, they can become so obsessed that they refuse to see the truth. Example: In 1978 the first ever crop circle appeared in England. These became more numerous and more intricate in design and people ate it up. Theories were abundant from visiting UFOs to freak whirlwinds.
In 1991, Doug Bower and Dave Chorley confessed their hoax. They had come up with the idea while sitting at a pub. Making crop circles have since spread and there are even crop circle creators clubs. Yet, some people refuse to believe that it was a hoax all along.
It just amazes me how gullible some people are. It scares me that so many people are so gullible, and I think TV is mostly to blame for this. If you enter crop circle on Google, the overwhelming pages found are still on theories of alien visitors and other phenomenon. Only a handful describes the hoax.
Sorry, I went off on a side line here, but I wanted to point out that seeing something is directly related to the strength of an individuals desire to believe. The subject of the vision is directly related to what an individual desires to believe.
Hope that explains my position better, without getting away so easily. 
Jack
…this is great (and probably my most successful thread yet!)
Keep them coming…
And Jack; thanks!
Jack, a quick question: What type of “evidence” would be left behind by a visioin? You use lack of evidence to discount all the supposed visions of the Virgin Marry, but what would be there aside from personal experience? Visions aren’t physical manifestations, and even if they were, are you expecting a slime trail? The great thing about beliefs and faith is that they exist despite “proof.” That’s why you believe, because you can’t see.
I think you have answered your own question. There never is evidence because for those who claim to have them, it is such a personal experience. Now, whether the visions are caused by drugs, tumors or some other reason is not the point of this discussion, but I am certain a great many of these visions are created by hoaxers.
I must absolutely disagree that faith is a great thing because proof is not required. Allow me to give you a little history lesson. From the 14th until as late as 18th century witches were being burned. Guess what proof was required to convict a witch to death? None. It was pure blind faith and evidence in the form of unreliable witnesses who had visions of Satan and witch hunters who where paid by the church for each witch they caught. Once accused, the witch faced a trial that consisted of extracting a confession through the means of torture. If the torture didn’t kill you, your confession would condemn you. Either way, you were dead.
Blind faith is also a tool to provide better warriors. It is by far easier to send young men into the battlefield with the promise of a glorious heavenly after life then to send them into battle for the only purpose to gain territory. Unfortunately, blind faith also creates fanaticism and I don’t need to remind you what kind of death and destruction that extreme form of blind faith can cause.
Another interesting phenomenon was the various visions of Jesus and Mary around Europe about 500-600 years ago. When these first started, the witnesses were very often children. Initially, the local priests were skeptical, but when the rumors got around, they found that such visions were great for the local economy as people would come from miles around to be close or touch the people and items associated to the vision. The priests decided the visions were actually good and started endorsing them.
This kind of thing continues today. Next time you read an article or see a story on TV about some strange phenomenon witnessed by some individual or a few people. Take a closer look at what kind of money they are making. It is a business. No body in their right mind would visit Roswell New Mexico on vacation, yet the town enjoys thousands of visitors each year because of the UFO crash myth. The Loch Ness monster attracts thousands of visitors to that remote part of Scotland. The shroud of Turin, (already proven to be fake) attracts thousands of faithful pilgrims. It’s a business pure and simple and you can see the wealth in gold and silver when you visit any old cathedral in Europe.
One of the reasons Bower and Chorley came clean about their crop circle hoax in 1991 was the fact that they were not happy about the money being made by so called pseudo-scientists who authored books and studies on the crop circle phenomenon.
To conclude, blind faith can be used to kill innocent people or it can be used to fool people out of their hard-earned money. I don’t see the greatness in that.
Darqangelle my apologies for this hijack.
Jack
Jack, where did all that come from? We’re not talking about witch hunts here, we’re talking about someone’s faith in a god. Beliefe in a god doesn’t create all this garbage, belief in religion is the foundation for all this stuff. And even with that, you’re “argument” has nothing to do with my question. I’m not asking about what some people did a long time ago in the so called “name of God,” I’m asking how is it that one is supposed to offer proof of a vision’s validity.
And I agree, blind faith is a terrible thing. But not all believers are blind.
I misspelled “belief.” I’m stoopid.
What did these believers see, El?
Hey Darq. I’m not citing anything in particular, although Jack brought up visions of the Virgin Marry. I’m just talking about your generic “vision.” Lots of people have them, and they cover anything from visions of saints, objects aflame, statues bleeding, pictures crying, all that sort of spiritual stuff. I admit, not all of them can be true, but I’m not strong enough/weak enough in my faith to discredit all of them. Jack just made the statement earlier that visions aren’t possible without the use of narcotics/tumors/other mind altering external influences because there’s no proof. I’m just curious as to what type of proof Vishnu would leave behind if he came to someone one day and was like “Hey, just wanted to let you know I’m still here, so behave.”
Well if you scroll up to your initial question to me, you first posed a question on the evidence of visions. I clearly answered that there never is any evidence and no, I do not expect a slime trail.
Then you made a statement that faith and belief is good because they exist despite proof. The second part of my response to you was complete and utter disagreement and I attempted to give you some examples of why, in my opinion, blind faith is actually bad.
You have dismissed my post as garbage. I guess I wasted my precious time on you. This is a classic brainwash response. Fact does not agree with indoctrinated fantasy? Ergo reject as garbage. You could have forewarned me that your mind was already closed, cause I wouldn’t have bothered answering with thoughtful opinion. If you don’t think faith had anything to do with witch hunts, I suggest you take a closer critical look at your own religion. Replace the word witch with homosexual and where would you stand? What would the extremists in your religion say about the queers? Aren’t there a few instances of murder and beatings of faggots every year for no other reason than hatred? Where does that hatred stem from? Need I go on?
This is a contradiction. You are expected to believe despite a complete lack of evidence. Therefore your belief must be blind.
Drugs and tumors were some examples, I clearly left that portion open for other possibilities.
I think you are asking the wrong person here. As Vishnu or any other fantastic being has never appeared before me I have no idea what they would leave behind as proof.
My use of words such as queers and faggots was intended to emphasize the hatred promoted by some right wing religious leaders.
In no way were they meant to offend anyone and are not representative of my views on homosexuals.
Darqangelle sorry for turning this into a debate.
Jack
Jack: not at all. I’m looking for some clarification of what people believe. I’m also trying to nail down exactly what it is that would make people believe that Allah/God/Mother Nature/Ganesh/Zeus/whatever is here. And what would be the “evidence” for them that (s)he is standing right in front of them.
El has provided his viewpoint, if that’s not enough for you, then fine, let’s hear more from him. I want to hear more from him. “Blind faith” aside: what would it take for ANYONE on this world to know that THAT girl, RIGHT THERE is the almighty?
You see, on a personal level, I can’t imagine that a diety would appear on this sceptical world and convince everybody that they are who they claim to be. Most people would look at a wise man in robes and probably just say, “Great. Another freak in this town. Just what we need.”
Others would probably try and convince him/her that (s)he’s crazy and requires supervision (That’s “supervision”, not “super vision”, a trait which I’m certain already exists in our case study).
I’m thinking that it doesn’t matter who they are: even if they’re “The Buddy Christ” turning water into wine, there will always be some skeptic who says “I saw that trick in Vegas. Give me something else.”
But so far, we’ve gotten into the Christian idea of God here, I’d like to get other religions with their beliefs in here as well.
“I was flying in from Memphis, I saw Jesus on the plane or maybe it was Elvis, you know they kinda look the same.”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NiceGuyJack *
[BThen you made a statement that faith and belief is good because they exist despite proof.
Um, no I didn’t, I said one of the good things about faith and belief is that they can exist without proof, I never gave either of them a classification of “good” or “evil.” And what’s with this calling me close minded shit? You’re the one discounting the existance of any form of deity and calling everyone who believes in one “blind.” I admit I believe in a god, I admit I attend Catholic Church, and I also admit I don’t know shit about the way God thinks, acts, or reasons. How could I? But I do believe because something in me says it does, and I can’t despute that. You can’t call me “Blind” because of a feeling I have and the fact that I stand up for that belief. I wasn’t brainwashed, I took the religion I was raised with, the religions of others around me, came to what I believed was the right way to worship “my vision of God,” and use the Catholic Church and the community to help me get there. I wasn’t tied down and forced images and stories until I believed because I’d been programed. I’ve been taught my entire life to think about this sort of thing, take what I can and develope my own relationship with God, reguardless of religion. In fact, most religous leaders will tell you that one’s relationship with “god” is more important than any religious standing or rituals.
As for what would happen if one were to replace “homosexuals” with witches…nothing. I mean, if there was a “Homosexual Hunt,” I gues that would work, but if you look into the foundations and teachings of what you call “my religion”, you would find that there is NO hatred taught against homosexuals. They are to be embrassed into the community and treated like anyone else. Tell me, if “my religion” so hates homosexuals, why does my church have a Gay Men’s Assosiation? A club for gay men sponsored by a CATHOLIC CHURCH. You stated it yourself, all of your arguments are coming off of your own stereotypes of “Right talg religious leaders.” You’re not talking about the everyday faith teachings here, you’re attacking the ignorants that exist, not because religion has created them, but because the society they have come from has bred them that way. And despite what you think, Religion doesn’t control every red neck racist biggot from Backwater America.
And as for “All faith being blind,” that’s bullshit, because a lot of people have to search before they find what they’re looking for, and a lot of times that ends up being faith in a god or religion. You’re search (if you ever bothered to make one) led you to BELIEVE that there is no god. Mine search taught me something else. If that makes me blind, well, the dark room is apparently big enough for two.
That should read “Right wing religous leaders,” not “Right tarlg religious readers.” My bad.
wing
wang
tang
talg…
yeah, I could see it happening :?
Okay, this thread WASN’T meant to become a debate per se, which is why I didn’t put it into GD. So I’d like to try and get us back on track.
Now 54 posts is pretty good, but NOT when over 1000 have taken a glance at it!
Lurkers quit lurking and tell me what you think! These can’t be the ONLY views people have on their God™, can it?
Sorry about that, I’ve gone ahead and posted a new thread in the Great Debates section to talk about this, so if Jack still wants to tear me a new one, by all means, do it there.
He (yes, or she) would be the poorest, the meekest, the filthiest, the most in need, the most despised, the ugliest, the most wretched, the sickest, the vilest, the one who is in the way, underfoot, undeserving, easy to ridicule, humble, mournful, and hungry. And probably in prison.
((gratuitous bump))
Since you ask, I will respond:
Like someone else said, God is omnipresent, so he/she/it is already there(or at least the essence of him), somewhere around the neighborhood.
I see an essence of God in the pets at the vet clinic I used to go, in the birdies that sing on top of the trees, and even in the playful squirrels. I see a part of him in someone who helps another one expecting no reward.
If God took the form of a person, probably it will go unnoticed. Just an average guy/gal. I will probably feel peace inside of me while being near that person.