# What if God is a big, fat meany? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241 "2004-09-21T02:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/21 "2004-09-22T01:14:15Z")
This mean god gave me the ability to bond with my abuser, so sure. You see it with abused kids, abused spouses, some less than healthy S&M relationships. Even abused dogs continually remain loyal to, “love” and strive to please their tormentors. So yeah, I could love a mean god. It’s sick, sick, sick, but I could. If I only became aware of, and convinced of this mean god as an adult though, with little or no personal pain/reward codependency sicko stuff going on, then I’d have to fake it. It would just be fear, and that’s probably not enough. He’d know I was faking, and I’d be doomed of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/22 "2004-09-22T02:33:38Z")
Moving this from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/23 "2004-09-22T04:42:31Z")
> [@PussyCow](#): > > However, one COULD imagine that if there were a god he could have formed our minds to think and act in other ways that would NOT cause evil AND still have free will and not be mindless robots. Once again, if he’s omnipotent it means he could do **anything**. No it doesn’t; omnioptence does not entail doing that which is logically contradictory. To insist that he create a world where people have genuine free will yet cannot choose disobedience is absurd, on the order of demanding that he create a universe where circles are square. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/24 "2004-09-22T05:46:20Z")
Or a Heaven where we can have free will but will not want to do anything but _His_ will. ---
**Author:** ![WhammyAthame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9e8a1a/32.png) [@WhammyAthame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhammyAthame)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/25 "2004-09-22T05:47:35Z")
> [@PussyCow](#): > > Ah the great debate: Does God exist? > > For many atheists (myself included) the idea of the Judeo-Muslim-Christian God is contradictory, and this is a large reason we do not believe in Him, nor want to. He is omnipotent (yet He allows suffering and death to His followers), he is omniscient (He created us knowing the horrors of what we would do and that some would never believe in Him), and he is omnibenevolent (however He will send the non-believers to hell). > > What if God did prove, and I mean with your empirical senses and logic, that he does exist. However He **is** this mean God who has been and will continue to banish non-believers (Hindus, Buddists, etc.) to hell. He has the power to stop the suffering of even his believers, but doesn’t. He tells you that you must love Him and worship him and you will go to heaven. But if not when you die you will get nothing. > > My question to you all is: > > Given this knowledge would you love Him? Would you even pretend to love Him, go through the motions so you can have an eternal afterlife of joy? And then have to live with him for eternity. well… I’m not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim and no I don’t like their gods. I say gods because no matter what muslims say I don’t think their god is the same as the Judeo-Christian god, if either of them even exist - which I doubt. As far as religion goes, I have my left foot firmly planted in Pagan beliefs and the right firmly planted in Atheism. I have had too many occult type experiences to deny that there is something beyond this existance, but I think most religions are nothing more than a bunch of man made fairy tales - however I won’t say that there aren’t some truths contained in some of them. I have problems with almost every belief system, so I kind of pick and choose,study and explore and discard whatever doesn’t seem to fit. So what I think today may not be what I think a week from now. We can think we know the truth, but when it comes right down to it none of us know for sure. However one belief that stays with me is the belief in reincarnation, and that our time on this plane of existance is not the only time we will exist. Since time is relative to where you are, what is a lifetime here may be only the blink of an eye out there. What we experience here in a lifetime of pain and suffering, joy and happiness is minute out there. This plane is a stage, and we all have roles to play, we all have something to learn to take back with us, and we all have something to contribute. What seems like suffering here is not real out there, so while it may seem to us here that the ‘greater power’ is letting us suffer, once we are released from this role we will see that was a learning experience and we will move on to our next role. Which may or may not be on this planet. Whether or not we are bored life forms who do this for fun, or there is some greater power who guides us in this, who knows? For all I know we are all nothing more that a bunch of 1’s and 0’s in some huge cosmic computer and when the program finishes running we cease to exist. Or maybe at the end we are all absorbed back into the One, or maybe we all evolve into gods ourselves and start our own little universes. Or all the ancient gods could have actually been aliens from other planets who dropped in and were so far advance that they appeared to be as gods. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/26 "2004-09-22T09:22:43Z")
As a [physicalist](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/), you could not present me with **any** evidence which would convince me of the existence of the metaphysical or supernatural. Even were God to literally appear before me in a situation only I could know of, I would think it more likely that I was being decieved by advanced technology _a la_ a holodeck or _Matrix_. (Of course, God or technology could physically manipulate my brain into the configuration “belief in God”, but we’re talking about my ‘natural’ calculation here.) This is not to say I belive it’s _impossible_ that I’m wrong, merely that it would be impossible to _convince_ me I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/27 "2004-09-22T10:12:39Z")
That’s why I admire Sentient so much. His intellectual honesty serves him well, as does his kind heart. Only he (and a few others) will not be startled to hear that he and I are philosophical siblings. I will stand beside him in God’s awesome light before almost any Christian I know. A man whose mind is closed to God is one premise away from belief, while a man whose heart is closed has discarded God already. Regarding the OP, it is metaphysically impossible that God is evil, just as it is physically impossible that the universe contains a vacuum. If God is evil, then we aren’t here. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/28 "2004-09-22T10:53:44Z")
Admiration in return, **Lib**. You know that I deny your metaphysics and consider that _evil_ is the thing which exists and good is merely its _absence_, but as was said by some boys from my birthplace who did rather well in your country, _All you need is love_. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/29 "2004-09-22T14:32:03Z")
Sorry, **PC** , I tried to keep this from turning into a debate. I suppose it was pre-destined, though. Since we’re here now: **jsgoddess** posted: > [@](#): > > So, a flesh-eating bacteria is the result of humanity’s bad choices? Earthquakes and hurricanes are brought on by free will? So you’re positing that bacteria and bad weather are evil? That’s a bit disingenious, at best. Your examples are potential causes of suffering, and have nothing to do with evil. While evil always causes suffering, suffering is not always a result of evil. Do humans have the capacity to mitigate our suffering? Yes, to some extent. For an easy example, if you don’t want to suffer through a huricane or earthquake then don’t live in regions where these phenomenon are most likey to occur. We cannot eliminate suffering, by any stretch. Could God? Sure, but my question would be why would He? I don’t like suffering, but I see that it has it’s place in this world. I experience more personal growth through times of suffering than at any other time. In the short term it hurts like hell but in the long term it has made me a much better person. If I can see, over the course of my short lifetime, how suffering can bring about good, then how much more could I realize if I could see the whole picture - all of time from beginning to end? I don’t presume to have the mind of God. I can’t answer why He created us the way He did, beyond what is written in the Bible. I do have the intelligence to see that all of the creation, even what we see as painful and bad, fits together in a highly complex but logical manner when viewed as a whole and not individual pieces. ---
**Author:** ![PussyCow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/22d042/32.png) [@PussyCow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PussyCow)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/30 "2004-09-22T14:48:48Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No it doesn’t; omnioptence does not entail doing that which is logically contradictory. To insist that he create a world where people have genuine free will yet cannot choose disobedience is absurd, on the order of demanding that he create a universe where circles are square. From Merriam-Webster: [Omnipotent](http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=omnipotent&x=0&y=0) means “having virtually unlimited authority or influence”. The definition does _not_ state “all powerful unless you try to break the rules of logic”. It is _debateable_ whether God can defy logic. I agree it’s ridiculous to say that God can create a stone so heavy not even he can lift it, but it’s equally ridiculous to say that God saved X number of people from a fire in a church because he was “looking out for them”, while he decided to let his other faithful burn. ---
**Author:** ![PussyCow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/22d042/32.png) [@PussyCow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PussyCow)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/31 "2004-09-22T14:52:45Z")
Uh-oh. I missed the “virtually” term when I first posted. So I guess I just proved your point **furt**. however unintentionally. 🙂 Well, that is not how I understood the definition of word. I understood it to be just all powerful, no questions asked. So I suppose then that God is fallible. Oh my gosh! He’s just a guy like everybody else. He makes mistakes! Well no wonder. Poor ol’ sod. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/32 "2004-09-22T14:57:15Z")
> [@Doctor Jackson](#): > > Sorry, **PC** , I tried to keep this from turning into a debate. I suppose it was pre-destined, though. Since we’re here now: > > **jsgoddess** posted: > > So you’re positing that bacteria and bad weather are evil? I don’t believe in evil. You are the one who introduced evil into the question. **PussyCow** said: > [@](#): > > He is omnipotent (yet He allows suffering and death to His followers) Note the absence of “evil” in the comment. You replied: > [@](#): > > God does, indeed, allow suffering and evil. We were created with the ability to chose our own path. Evil, which always results in suffering, is a choice we make. In order for God to put an end to evil and the suffering it causes He would have to A) make us all perfect, mindless robots or B) wipe put all humanity. I’ll take option “C”, thanks - free will at the price of death and suffering. Note that when she asked about suffering and death, you automatically brought “evil” into the equation and said that humanity is responsible for it through their free will. But, obviously, free will doesn’t cause some sorts of suffering. Getting rid of earthquakes and bacteria wouldn’t in any way impinge upon our free will. So, it would be really strange to say that humanity is doomed to suffer because God gave us free will when the one isn’t dependent on the other. The question comes up again: God is omnipotent yet he allows suffering and death. It’s great that you think you’ve achieved personal growth because you’ve suffered. What sucks is the one-year-old drowning in a bucket of water just so someone else will have some fabulous personal growth. Somehow, I don’t think your personal growth is worth someone else’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/33 "2004-09-22T15:45:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I will stand beside him in God’s awesome light before almost any Christian I know. If I have to stand in God’s awesome light, may I please have an amber spot, a low-placed pin-light and some gauze on the camera? Lighting is _everything_, dahling. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/34 "2004-09-22T17:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t believe in evil. Then by extension you don’t believe in moral right and wrong, because the first definition of “evil” in most dictionaries is “The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness”. If you can’t “believe in” bad, wrong, or wicked then there can be no further debate. > [@](#): > > Note that when she asked about suffering and death, you automatically brought “evil” into the equation and said that humanity is responsible for it through their free will. Yep, I did. The cause of all human inflicted suffering is evil. Please note, I did not say all suffering is caused by evil, just that inflicted by humans. You cannot talk about avoidable suffering without talking about its cause. > [@](#): > > But, obviously, free will doesn’t cause some sorts of suffering. On this we agree. My POV is “All evil causes suffering but not all suffering is caused by evil”. > [@](#): > > What sucks is the one-year-old drowning in a bucket of water just so someone else will have some fabulous personal growth. No, what sucks is your insistance on using smokescreens and hyberbole in place of debate. If you mean that you don’t think suffering leads to growth, say it. I can argue that point. If you are saying that I advocate the death of children for my benefit, then you’re not worth my time. As it is, you’re comment uses many words to say nothing. I love a good debate and I invite you to challenge my views on any topic (we’re actually off religion now and squarely into philosophy), but leaping so far that you sprain your conclusion doesn’t foster debate. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/35 "2004-09-22T18:00:23Z")
**SentientMeat** just converted me to his religion. I already had essentially the same answer to the question: what would convince me of the existence of a god? So it’s just a formality. Thanks, comrade! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/36 "2004-09-22T18:09:18Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > If I have to stand in God’s awesome light, may I please have an amber spot, a low-placed pin-light and some gauze on the camera? > > Lighting is _everything_, dahling. Me too. I like my light subdued. That’s what makes it awesome. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/37 "2004-09-22T18:16:41Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No it doesn’t; omnioptence does not entail doing that which is logically contradictory. To insist that he create a world where people have genuine free will yet cannot choose disobedience is absurd, on the order of demanding that he create a universe where circles are square. However it is not logically contradictory to assert that an omnipotent God could create a world where people have free will and _do not_ choose obedience. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/38 "2004-09-22T18:18:47Z")
Correction–do not choose _disobedience._ ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/39 "2004-09-22T18:30:56Z")
> [@Doctor Jackson](#): > > Then by extension you don’t believe in moral right and wrong, because the first definition of “evil” in most dictionaries is “The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness”. If you can’t “believe in” bad, wrong, or wicked then there can be no further debate. Most of the connotations I’ve seen of “evil” are included in this definition: “Moral badness, or the deviation of a moral being from the principles of virtue imposed by conscience, or by the will of the Supreme Being, or by the principles of a lawful human authority; disposition to do wrong; moral offence; wickedness; depravity.” I don’t believe most bad thigns are caused by someone deliberately choosing to deviate from the principles of virtue imposed by anything. I don’t believe many “evil-doers” are “moral beings” in any real way. > [@](#): > > Yep, I did. The cause of all human inflicted suffering is evil. Please note, I did not say all suffering is caused by evil, just that inflicted by humans. You cannot talk about avoidable suffering without talking about its cause. So what is the cause of non “human inflicted” suffering? > [@](#): > > On this we agree. My POV is “All evil causes suffering but not all suffering is caused by evil”. So it’s caused by what? > [@](#): > > If you mean that you don’t think suffering leads to growth, say it. I can argue that point. If you are saying that I advocate the death of children for my benefit, then you’re not worth my time. As it is, you’re comment uses many words to say nothing. I’m saying that you say suffering is okay because something good can come out of it: > [@](#): > > We cannot eliminate suffering, by any stretch. Could God? Sure, but my question would be why would He? I don’t like suffering, but I see that it has it’s place in this world. I experience more personal growth through times of suffering than at any other time. In the short term it hurts like hell but in the long term it has made me a much better person. If I can see, over the course of my short lifetime, how suffering can bring about good, then how much more could I realize if I could see the whole picture - all of time from beginning to end? Why should God eliminate suffering? For the same reason we try to eliminate suffering. Because not trying when you have the capacity is nasty, and cruel, and heck I’ll even use your word, evil. I’m saying suffering is bad no matter how well it turns out for you. If God is letting _other_ people suffer so that _I_ experience some personal growth, then that’s just vicious. And that’s what you’re left with in a world where a, say, one-year-old dies by accident, or by earthquake, or by hurricane, or by illness. The child suffers. The child’s parents suffer. The child is dead so no hope for personal growth there. The parents? Funny, no matter how much growing they do, I don’t think it can overcome the loss they suffer. If I were in front of them offering to whack their child so that they become really strong people, do you think they’d make that choice? But they aren’t even given the option. Where is their vaunted “free will” then, if God is just going to do things to them for their own good? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241/40 "2004-09-22T21:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Most of the connotations I’ve seen of “evil” are included in this definition: “Moral badness, or the deviation of a moral being from the principles of virtue imposed by conscience, or by the will of the Supreme Being, or by the principles of a lawful human authority; disposition to do wrong; moral offence; wickedness; depravity.” So which part of that, aside from the Supreme Being, do you not believe in? > [@](#): > > I don’t believe many “evil-doers” are “moral beings” in any real way. Moral beings never do anything evil? Beings that do evil things are not moral? I’m confused. By the way, humans are the only beings on this palnet that have the capacity for morals. I’ll stick to the term “people” instead of “beings”. > [@](#): > > So what is the cause of non “human inflicted” suffering? Oh, I think you could list the causes as easily as I could. You offered up a few in a prior post. If you meant to ask why would God allow “random” suffering, that’s a whole 'nuther issue. There is no one easy answer, but one philisophical view is that there could be no good times without bad times. In other words, to know happiness you must know pain. YMMV. > [@](#): > > I’m saying that you say suffering is okay because something good can come out of it I never said “suffering is OK”. As a matter of fact, I said I do not like suffering - I’ll go even further and say I _hate_ suffering - BUT I can see why it has a place in this world. My God, the Christian God, promises Utopia in a day to come. Why should we have to suffer here first? I wish I could give you a short, easy answer. Fact is, even the best answers to that question are only speculation. We can’t know the mind of God. Faith, by its definition, is based on evidence, not proof. > [@](#): > > Because not trying when you have the capacity is nasty, and cruel, and heck I’ll even use your word, evil. (Hyperbole snipped) I think the ultimate question you’re asking is “Why do bad things happen to good people?”. There have been whole books written on that topic, one with that exact title. If you really want to look at possible answers, read one of those books. There is no way I can adequately cover that topic in the time I am able to allot here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-is-a-big-fat-meany/265241.md?page=3)