# What if God was an event? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121 "2007-04-30T03:35:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/21 "2007-05-02T12:16:23Z")
I think you need to read some Nietzsche, maybe some Sartre. Then you can drop this “God” business, and get on with the really difficult bit, the bit about being fully human and fully in the world. Wholly here, wholly now, not holy here and holy now. Hey, GD’s for witnessing… ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/22 "2007-05-02T12:39:48Z")
That’s funny. Nietzsche and Sartre are actually where I started out. :smack: Truthfully these God debates here really touch a chord with me, because my father is an atheist whose family were devout Methodists (his grandfather was a minister). When I was 8 years old I figured out that Christianity didn’t make any sense. How on earth could millions and millions of Chinese people be written off completely, simply because they worshipped a different God? Yet I still felt a God-presence in my life. So I started my own little “church”. My peers were wildly unimpressed. 😛 When I read bits and pieces of various religious debates here, I tend to think that pretty much _everyone_ IS right. And it occurred to me that they’re all having their own individual God events. So maybe that’s part of what this all adds up to, this God business, maybe it’s a big word for a small, personal event. It’s probably obvious that I’m just groping my way around this issue. I’m not looking for a limiting answer, just more doorways and paths to understanding. I wanted to ask you, **mswas** , about this whole personification of God, of God’s word, as owned and used by a specific group of people. I think _that_ is where the problem is. The dicta of a certain time treated as the immutable word of God. I don’t think atheists are any kind of threat to religion, not as compared to people who presume ownership. I hope I didn’t go there myself. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/23 "2007-05-02T12:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] A valid point but not always practical. People want to come together to discover and enjoy their common ground, even if some specific details vary from individual to individual. Thats where I think the term god comes in handy. [/QUOTE] But the details vary with respect to the definition of ‘god’, so how is that any different than simply describing based on qualities? It doesn’t clarify anything. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/24 "2007-05-02T18:47:12Z")
[QUOTE=jackdavinci] Depends on your purpose. Are you trying to make an athropological point about the origins of religious/spiritual phenomena? Are you you trying to “rebrand” the word God? What’s the aim here… I just think in general, descriptive language is much more useful than nominative language. It’s more useful to say that you teach than that you are a teacher. It’s more useful to say that you have a crush on someone or a deep bond of marriage or a very close friendship than that you love someone. [/QUOTE] I agree that descriptive language can be more precise and sometimes more effective. I think it’s fine for people to find more precise and descriptive language to express their joy, their hope, their awe. My point isn’t that we should rebrand the word god, only that we should recognize that we can only understand what it means to someone else in the context of who they are as a person. Similar to the word love. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/25 "2007-05-02T18:55:50Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] But the details vary with respect to the definition of ‘god’, so how is that any different than simply describing based on qualities? It doesn’t clarify anything. [/QUOTE] True and If I go to a church where I feel their definition of God is too different from my own I don’t feel that unity of purpose. It’s a situation moment to moment thing. It serves the purpose of Unity when the timing and the feeling is right. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/26 "2007-05-02T19:13:24Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] When I read bits and pieces of various religious debates here, I tend to think that pretty much _everyone_ IS right. And it occurred to me that they’re all having their own individual God events. So maybe that’s part of what this all adds up to, this God business, maybe it’s a big word for a small, personal event. It’s probably obvious that I’m just groping my way around this issue. I’m not looking for a limiting answer, just more doorways and paths to understanding. I wanted to ask you, **mswas** , about this whole personification of God, of God’s word, as owned and used by a specific group of people. I think _that_ is where the problem is. The dicta of a certain time treated as the immutable word of God. I don’t think atheists are any kind of threat to religion, not as compared to people who presume ownership. I hope I didn’t go there myself. [/QUOTE] I think you’ve touched on an important truth here. The inner journey and discovery of God, our relationship with God, our God event, is very personal and unique. People gather together in groups to celebrate the sharing of these events that can be a beautiful thing. The sharing of a song, or a common prayer of hope and gratitude. The unfortunate side effect seems to be that these groups tend to desire so much uniformity that they pressure their members to be forced into a certain path. Sometimes that hinders the journey rather than helps it. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/27 "2007-05-02T19:47:44Z")
Here’s why I don’t get this whole “God” thing - When people write about it, it pretty much looks like random words strung together in a seemingly syntactically correct pattern, but which are virtually nonsense to me. It appears as though people have pulled adjectives out of a dictionary and randomly inserted them into sentences, like Mad Libs. “God is the inner essence of knowingness - the beauty of being is encapsulated in the selfness of wonderment. Our spiritual journey is fulfilling the infinite joyfulness of inspiration. Perhaps the nature of God is the spiritual sharing of life-force.” I know nobody actually wrote that, but that’s how it reads to me. I guess there’s something there that I’m not understanding, because believers seem to understand and agree with each other. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/28 "2007-05-02T20:02:41Z")
That’s one of the things that has perplexed me, too, **lowbrass**. It sounds like stoned-out frou-frou and bullshit. It does. I can’t put it into words any better than that myself, either. I think the religious state is an “altered” state, similar to that described by users of illegal substances. _Doors of Perception_ and all that. Some of us can get “there” without drugs. I don’t know why. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/29 "2007-05-02T20:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] The sharing of a song, or a common prayer of hope and gratitude. [/QUOTE] That’s an interesting point. You reminded me of the community orchestra I used to belong to. Nobody got paid to play our concerts, in fact we musicians provided financial support to the group (the cost of sheet music and performance venues adds up). But we didn’t mind. In fact it was a privilege. I suspect that (many?) (most?) of the things people do as volunteers represent their own personal God-event. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/30 "2007-05-02T20:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] Yeah, I was thinking about that book _It’s All God_, which I own but never got around to reading, because what’s the point? Once you’ve said “it’s all God” there’s really nowhere else to go. [/QUOTE] That didn’t stop Oolon Colluphid from making a bundle with his trilogy of philosophical blockbusters, _Where God Went Wrong_, _Some More Of God’s Greatest Mistakes_, and _Who Is This God Person, Anyway?_. (With apologies to Douglas Adams, of course.) If you want to define some event as “God” then, as as **mstay** says, whatever helps you sleep, but that distinguishes it from the kind of conscious, omnipotent being that most monotheist religions celebrate, and into the realm of pure semantic argument. This makes it not terribly useful in any practical sense. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/31 "2007-05-02T22:54:08Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] True and If I go to a church where I feel their definition of God is too different from my own I don’t feel that unity of purpose. It’s a situation moment to moment thing. It serves the purpose of Unity when the timing and the feeling is right. [/QUOTE] Well, I can certainly understand hanging with people who define it the way you do, but you will undoubtedly discuss the concept with people who are believers (or not) who don’t define it the way you do. Maybe the word should only be uttered in church! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/32 "2007-05-02T23:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Well, I can certainly understand hanging with people who define it the way you do, but you will undoubtedly discuss the concept with people who are believers (or not) who don’t define it the way you do. Maybe the word should only be uttered in church! [/QUOTE] That would make for a less interesting SDMB wouldn’t it? Seriously, they don’t have to consistently define it as I do for me to enjoy singing “I can only Imagine” or “How Great Thou Art.” because for those few minutes the differences don’t matter, but finding a point of unity does. Also, discussion furthers the thought process and understanding, so I think it’s cool to discuss things with people who believe very differently. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/33 "2007-05-02T23:44:04Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] That’s an interesting point. You reminded me of the community orchestra I used to belong to. Nobody got paid to play our concerts, in fact we musicians provided financial support to the group (the cost of sheet music and performance venues adds up). But we didn’t mind. In fact it was a privilege. I suspect that (many?) (most?) of the things people do as volunteers represent their own personal God-event. [/QUOTE] I think you’re right. A sense of purpose and unity. A sense of awe. Spong described it as a sense of the transcendent other. It’s different for different people but there is something truly wonderful about people coming together to find hope, wonder, and a sense of unity, in whatever event works for them. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/34 "2007-05-02T23:49:51Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] That didn’t stop Oolon Colluphid from making a bundle with his trilogy of philosophical blockbusters, _Where God Went Wrong_, _Some More Of God’s Greatest Mistakes_, and _Who Is This God Person, Anyway?_. (With apologies to Douglas Adams, of course.) If you want to define some event as “God” then, as as **mstay** says, whatever helps you sleep, but that distinguishes it from the kind of conscious, omnipotent being that most monotheist religions celebrate, and into the realm of pure semantic argument. This makes it not terribly useful in any practical sense. Stranger [/QUOTE] well the books sound interesting. I think for the term god, like a few other terms, we must realize it does not have the same meaning for all people. My guess is it would vary even within the same congregation made up of members of the same denomination. IMO that places a responsibility on those who are in any discussion to clarify what they are talking about. If the term has meaning for others other than the one you prefer and that meaning serves their purpose, then I guess it \*is \*useful after all. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/35 "2007-05-02T23:51:18Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] But the details vary with respect to the definition of ‘god’, so how is that any different than simply describing based on qualities? It doesn’t clarify anything. [/QUOTE] I really like what **mswas** wrote. I don’t know that my notion of a God-event is possible without the existence of a God – and the God I imagine is just exactly what **mswas** describes. My opinion is that God-events predate Official Religious Institutions. I think they were founded in order to tap into the “energy” people were generating, and to use that energy for a variety of purposes (some good, others not-so). I guess that’s the thing - it ticks me off that religious institutions act like they “own” God. They’ve got all these definitions going. And of course, whoever controls the definition wins the argument. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/36 "2007-05-03T00:03:06Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] That’s an interesting point. You reminded me of the community orchestra I used to belong to. Nobody got paid to play our concerts, in fact we musicians provided financial support to the group (the cost of sheet music and performance venues adds up). But we didn’t mind. In fact it was a privilege. I suspect that (many?) (most?) of the things people do as volunteers represent their own personal God-event. [/QUOTE] Just to wax poetic for a moment. When I read this thread the other day I was reminded of a song by Clint Black [Something that we do](http://www.mp3lyrics.org/c/clint-black/something-that-we-do/) He is speaking of love but I think some lines relate in thinking about popular religious terms concerning God > [@](#): > > But it isn’t somethin’ that we find > It’s somethin’ that we do > [@](#): > > Love isn’t somethin’ that we have > It’s somethin’ that we do > [@](#): > > We’re on a road that has no end > And each day we begin again > Love’s not just somethin’ that we’re in > It’s somethin’ that we do ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/37 "2007-05-03T09:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > **Stranger on a Train** : If you want to define some event as “God”… That seems a little reversed to me. > [@](#): > > …then, as as **mstay** says, whatever helps you sleep,… You’re not a little dismissive, are you? > [@](#): > > …but that distinguishes it from the kind of conscious, omnipotent being that most monotheist religions celebrate, and into the realm of pure… I would say: “That distinguishes is from _one_ kind of conscious, omnipotent Being.” And I would find relief that it was not _exactly_ what most monotheist religions celebrate. Perhaps it is a clearer understanding of what they _should_ celebrate. > [@](#): > > …linto the realm of pure semantic argument. I wonder what Einstein would have thought of semantic arguments about God. Talk about impractical! Would you have semantic arguments about being in love? Oh you would, would you? 😉 > [@](#): > > **fessie** : I’ve been sort of mulling this over and wondering if I’d blasphemed. That wasn’t my goal. My “event” was beginning to feel rather shallow and shriveled. I was hoping for expansive and welcoming. > It’s probably obvious that I’m just groping my way around this issue. I’m not looking for a limiting answer, just more doorways and paths to understanding. **fessie** , these are genuinely thoughtful posts. We all grope our way around this issue. What you have posted is not shallow at all. It’s very hard to talk about this particular subject – to find the right words. I think of _God_ as an event that is always taking place. You’ve given me a new way to describe it. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/38 "2007-05-03T13:28:48Z")
Thank you, **Zoe** and **Johanna**. I’ve really enjoyed your posts as well, **cosmosdan**. I wish there was a way to share one particular concert moment with you. We were playing Mozart’s _Requiem_, which is just absolutely profound anyway. The concert was a memorial for 9/11, played on the first year anniversary. Groups around the world performed it that day. We had the incredible luck to be performing in a huge chapel, it seated 1200. About a hundred of us in the orchestra, plus another hundred choir members from groups around the city who wanted to be there that day. Everybody was ON. The first movement was so stunning, so full, powerful; as it ended, the echoes coming back to us from the cavernous chapel affirmed life and death and God and beauty. I was crying, I thought, holy cow - the angels are here - we’ve risen the dead. The conductor (who’s an old pro, been around for years) was so thrown by the otherworldly effect that he totally f’d up the beginning of the second movement. The scrambling that ensued kind of brought everyone back to reality. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/39 "2007-05-03T18:18:25Z")
**fessie** That experience you described of Mozart’s Requiem sounds beautiful. As for the proprietary nature of owning ‘The Word’. When I was talking about ‘The Word’ I meant it as either creation or ‘ohm’ rather than a textbook of scripture. The way I read the bible, Jesus was fighting against the idea of a priest class, and yet it spawned a priest class. The notion that anyone can ‘own’ God seems patently ludicrous to me. **lowbrass** I think that when people describe it they often neglect to be clear that they are describing an experience. If you do not share that common experience, then people describing it will sound like babbling idiots. However, have you ever heard people who knew something about a topic you knew nothing about and listened to them sound like babbling idiots, yet they seem to know what the other is saying? In a way the god-talk is Jargon. That is why Christianity for instance, puts such a high premium on ‘revelation’. In a Christian church you get together to share your experience of revelation. If it was not revealed to you, how could you know it? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121/40 "2007-05-03T18:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=fessie] I wish there was a way to share one particular concert moment with you. We were playing Mozart’s _Requiem_, which is just absolutely profound anyway. The concert was a memorial for 9/11, played on the first year anniversary. Groups around the world performed it that day. We had the incredible luck to be performing in a huge chapel, it seated 1200. About a hundred of us in the orchestra, plus another hundred choir members from groups around the city who wanted to be there that day. Everybody was ON. The first movement was so stunning, so full, powerful; as it ended, the echoes coming back to us from the cavernous chapel affirmed life and death and God and beauty. I was crying, I thought, holy cow - the angels are here - we’ve risen the dead. The conductor (who’s an old pro, been around for years) was so thrown by the otherworldly effect that he totally f’d up the beginning of the second movement. The scrambling that ensued kind of brought everyone back to reality. [/QUOTE] I’ve had experiences like this. My question is, why couldn’t it have just been a lot of effort producing well played music in a large acoustic place during an emotional time? Why did you think angels were there, or you raised the dead? I’m willing to bet that if you didn’t have religious expectations, you wouldn’t have attributed the experience to religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-god-was-an-event/402121.md?page=3)