# What if GW Busch and crew refused to step down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016 "2006-07-11T13:21:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/1 "2006-07-11T13:21:40Z")
Let’s say that GW and his staff and **all** the personel he’s appointed over the years are in it together. They agree, as a group, that they will not step down no matter who wins the next election. Screw it, let’s assume the next elections have been cancelled somehow (by GW and crew). Let’s assume he also has all the judges he’s appointed in his pocket too (not sure if that matters or not, probably does…). Basically he tries to institute a dictatorship. What steps would/could be taken to remove him from power? Who would step up to the plate and take charge? How would things unravel? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/2 "2006-07-11T13:25:00Z")
Did we already do this before the last US election? Hell, I think there were threads about Clinton refusing to step down. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/3 "2006-07-11T13:31:09Z")
It has happened. In some circles it is believed that Bush lost 2 elections ,yet there he is. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/4 "2006-07-11T13:36:47Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > What if GW Busch and crew refused to step down? The nation would head to the mountains and _drink_ him. -End Of Problem. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/5 "2006-07-11T13:38:59Z")
Anyone powerful / power-hungry enough to do that would more likely have someone act as a puppet. It would look like there had been a change of administration (possibly even a change of political party in charge), but with the key players answering to the same folks pulling the strings. Considering how Term II has gone so far, I suspect GWB will be ready to step down at the end of his term. Looks old, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/6 "2006-07-11T13:42:01Z")
Well, I couldn’t find any, nor do I remember seeing one. Mod: Could the title be repaired to correct for spelling - Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/7 "2006-07-11T13:44:04Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Did we already do this before the last US election? Hell, I think there were threads about Clinton refusing to step down. Well, I couldn’t find any, nor do I remember seeing one. Mod: Could the title be repaired to correct for spelling - Bush. (Wayyyy too slow today) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/8 "2006-07-11T13:46:08Z")
Ok I only found one ([Election 2004 is cancelled](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=177448&highlight=refuse+election+bush+clinton)), but I wasn’t looking very hard. Why is this topic so fascinating to some? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/9 "2006-07-11T14:18:17Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Why is this topic so fascinating to some? I can’t speak for this OP, but I’m sure some poster here would love to see it actually happen so they could feel vindicated for all the nutty conspiracy stuff they’ve posted over the years. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/10 "2006-07-11T14:27:47Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The nation would head to the mountains and _drink_ him. > -End Of Problem. And here I was thinking that I didn’t know of any drivers called GW Busch. The half brother of Kurt and Kyle Busch? And yeah, this is and always shall be a pointless question. Even if it did happen, the offenders would find themselves dragged out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/11 "2006-07-11T14:32:29Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > It has happened. **In some circles** it is believed that Bush lost 2 elections ,yet there he is. (Bolding mine) Yes, and those circles would be whirlpools in the river of De-Nile. This was done in 2004, with “cancelling the election”, as pointed out above, “Refuse to step down”, “Pulls a coup”, etc., ad nauseam. Why not worry about something real, like whether the Dems can come up with a candidate that will beat Jeb Bush? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/12 "2006-07-11T14:44:50Z")
At 12 noon on January 21st 2009, the new President-Elect calls the Washington DC police and asks them to evict the trespassers from his new house. He says “Yes, Mr. President.” They do so. The end. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/13 "2006-07-11T14:46:18Z")
To attempt to seriously answer the question, what would happen if I declared myself president and refused to step down? Nothing would happen, everyone would ignore me. I’m not the president, and no amount of shouting on my part would make people treat me as the president. A similar thing would happen if Bush refused to step down. He’d be taken down. His term would expire and a new person would be president. If the old president refused to leave the white house, the new president would order the Secret Service to remove him. And they would. The old president would likely face criminal charges related to his coup attempt. The Justice Department would handle that, I suppose. If the old president has some armed goons and barricades himself in the white house, I suppose the real president would order the marines in. Or more likely an FBI SWAT team, it would look better if the ousting forces were civilian police rather than military. Thing is, the president is only president because we all agree he’s president. Bush can give all the orders he wants, that doesn’t matter if people don’t obey him. Bush would only be able to declare himself dictator if a majority of people wanted him to be dictator, or at least a very large and powerful minority. And even if a large portion of the military supported the coup, we’d still have civil war as most of the state governments would not support him, most of the federal employees would not support him. And anyway, how many people in the military today would support a coup? Just about zero. How many Republican Senators and Representatives and Governors would support a coup? Just about zero. How many career civil servants would support a coup? Just about zero. How many paramilitary political/thug groups (equivalent to the Brownshirts of the 1930s) would support a coup? Just about zero. How many in the general population would support a coup? Just about zero. Since nobody would support a coup, what good would it do for any President to stage a coup? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/14 "2006-07-11T15:02:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > A similar thing would happen if Bush refused to step down. He’d be taken down. His term would expire and a new person would be president. If the old president refused to leave the white house, the new president would order the Secret Service to remove him. And they would. That’s exactly what would happen. And if he tried to order the cancellation of the 2008 election, everybody would pretend that he was kidding and didn’t mean it. All the machinery of holding an election would keep on grinding forward, everyone would go to the polls on November 4, 2008, the votes would be tabulated, Diebold\* would tell us who won, and that person would be sworn in on the Capitol steps on January 20, 2009. \*Sorry, couldn’t resist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/15 "2006-07-11T15:34:49Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Let’s say that GW and his staff and **all** the personel he’s appointed over the years are in it together. Try to get 5 people to agree where to go for dinner. Now try to get thousands of people to support this coup attempt. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/16 "2006-07-11T15:52:16Z")
In order for something like that to work the military would have to go along. And if you think the military as a body would, your dont know the US military. Things like honor, tradition, upholding the Constitution etc… are lifes blood in the military. They would consider their duty on Jan 1, 2009 to forceably remove GW from office. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/17 "2006-07-11T16:01:48Z")
For comparison purposes in a Western democracy, this is almost what [Berlusconi did in Italy](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4904294.stm) a few months ago: he holed up, accused the opposition of fraud, and demanded several recounts. Eventually public, political, and court pressure forced him to resign. He wasn’t, however, Commander in Chief of the armed forces: a situation that could add some complications. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/18 "2006-07-11T16:09:56Z")
The other thing is that there are no federal elections in the US. All elections are run by the individual states. So Bush can’t just cancel elections, no election official reports to the federal executive branch. The president can do a lot on his own authority, even extra-legal things. So he can pick up the phone and order the Attorney General to order the head of the FBI to wiretap somebody, and it will probably be done, but he can’t pick up the phone and order elections to be cancelled, because he has no direct authority over any any election official. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/19 "2006-07-11T16:12:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And if he tried to order the cancellation of the 2008 election, everybody would pretend that he was kidding and didn’t mean it. And since elections are controlled by the states, it wouldn’t matter what someone in Washington DC said anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016/20 "2006-07-11T16:24:13Z")
I think he would need the cooperation of a majority of Congress but he could pull it off. [From the Constitution:](http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html) > [@](#): > > The Congress may determine the Time of choosing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States. It doesn’t say that Congess MUST determine a time for choosing electors, suppose they chose not to select a time at all? Bush declares that the war on terror demands that he not be removed from office, Congress goes along, refusing to determine a time for choosing electors or to receive their votes, and the Supreme Court refuses to hear the case. No electors chosen, no counting of the electoral votes in Congress, no change in the White House. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-gw-busch-and-crew-refused-to-step-down/364016.md?page=2)