# What if hitler is more pragmatic concerning
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 21, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413 "2015-08-21T05:46:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 9
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/1 "2015-08-21T05:46:56Z")
If the Germans had been more pragmatic (As unlikely as that is just go with it), including Hitler himself, how successful could a native recruitment program have been among the Soviet population including POWs and Red Army soldiers still fighting on Stalin’s side beginning in 1941?
If they created a propaganda campaign for the formation of a Russian Liberation Army (leaflet airdrops, fliers, etc) that they intended on actually creating, how many people would have joined? How many Soviet POWs would have chosen to fight against the government that had oppressed them and their families for so long rather than work as a laborer?
Could it have aided the Germans to a significant degree? Could it even have led to an internal revolution and eventual overthrow of Stalin and his government?
Links concerning collaboration among Soviet citizens with German forces:
> **[Russian Liberation Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army)**
>
> The Russian Liberation Army\[a\] (ROA), also known as the Vlasov army after its commander Andrey Vlasov,\[b\] was a collaborationist formation, primarily composed of Russians, that fought under German command during World War II.
> Vlasov, a Soviet general, agreed to collaborate with Nazi Germany after having been captured on the Eastern Front. The soldiers under his command were mostly former Soviet prisoners of war but also included White Russian émigrés, some of whom were veterans of the anti-com...
> **[Hiwi (volunteer)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_%28volunteer%29)**
>
> Hiwi (\[ˈhiːviː\]), the German abbreviation of the word Hilfswilliger or, in English, auxiliary volunteer, designated, during World War II, a member of different kinds of voluntary auxiliary forces made up of recruits indigenous to the territories of Eastern Europe occupied by Nazi Germany. Adolf Hitler reluctantly agreed to allow recruitment of Soviet citizens in the Rear Areas during Operation Barbarossa. In a short period of time, many of them were moved to combat units.
> Hiwis comprised 50% of ...
> **[Ostlegionen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen)**
>
> Ostlegionen ("eastern legions"), Ost-Bataillone ("eastern battalions"), Osttruppen ("eastern troops"), and Osteinheiten ("eastern units") were units in the Army of Nazi Germany during World War II made up of personnel from the Soviet Union. They were a large part of the Wehrmacht foreign volunteers and conscripts.
> Some members of the Ostlegionen units were conscripted or coerced into serving; others volunteered. Many were former Soviet personnel, recruited from prisoner of war camps. Osttruppe...
> **[Russian Protective Corps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Corps)**
>
> World War II in Yugoslavia:
> The Russian Protective Corps (German: Russisches Schutzkorps, Russian: Русский охранный корпус, Serbian: Руски заштитни корпус / Ruski zaštitni korpus) was an armed force composed of anti-communist White Russian émigrés that was raised in the German occupied territory of Serbia during World War II. Commanded for almost its whole existence by Lieutenant General Boris Shteifon, it served primarily as a guard force for factories and mines between late 1941 and early 19...
[Kaminski Brigade - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.S._Sturmbrigade_R.O.N.A).
[Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts)
[Collaboration with the Axis powers - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II)
[Schutzmannschaft - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzmannschaft)
---
### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/2 "2015-08-21T06:52:40Z")
There’s no certain way of knowing, but I think the likelihood is fairly high. Stalin was NOT particularly beloved, and it is said in many histories of the war that, initially, the Russian (well, Ukrainian) people welcomes the liberating German army.
If they had acted like liberators, they might well have been able to get the Russians to oust Stalin. They could have avoided needing to conquer the rest of Russia (just as, in 1940, they didn’t bother conquering the rest of France.)
---
### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/3 "2015-08-21T09:09:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> There’s no certain way of knowing, but I think the likelihood is fairly high. Stalin was NOT particularly beloved, and it is said in many histories of the war that, initially, the Russian (well, Ukrainian) people welcomes the liberating German army.
>
> If they had acted like liberators, they might well have been able to get the Russians to oust Stalin. They could have avoided needing to conquer the rest of Russia (just as, in 1940, they didn’t bother conquering the rest of France.)
Russia didn’t rule the USSR though and Stalin wasn’t Russian but I agree that the Ukrainian s would have helped drive the Soviets out. Some eight million died there in the thirties.
---
### Author:  [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/4 "2015-08-21T16:14:33Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#):
>
> If the Germans had been more pragmatic (As unlikely as that is just go with it), including Hitler himself, how successful could a native recruitment program have been among the Soviet population including POWs and Red Army soldiers still fighting on Stalin’s side beginning in 1941?
>
> If they created a propaganda campaign for the formation of a Russian Liberation Army (leaflet airdrops, fliers, etc) that they intended on actually creating, how many people would have joined? How many Soviet POWs would have chosen to fight against the government that had oppressed them and their families for so long rather than work as a laborer?
>
> Could it have aided the Germans to a significant degree? Could it even have led to an internal revolution and eventual overthrow of Stalin and his government?
This isn’t a theoretical, it actually happened, albeit behind Hitler’s back and with motivations far less noble than former Soviet POWs wanting to fight against the evils of communism. They either worked for the German Army or they starved to death; of 5.7 million Soviet POWs taken by the Germans 3.3 million died in captivity, they were the second largest group of victims of the [holocaust](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007178):
> [@](#):
>
> The brutal treatment of Soviet POWs by the Germans violated every standard of warfare. Existing sources suggest that some 5.7 million Soviet army personnel fell into German hands during World War II. As of January 1945, the German army reported that only about 930,000 Soviet POWs remained in German custody. **The German army released about one million Soviet POWs as auxiliaries of the German army and the SS.** About half a million Soviet POWs had escaped German custody or had been liberated by the Soviet army as it advanced westward through eastern Europe into Germany. The remaining 3.3 million, or about 57 percent of those taken prisoner, were dead by the end of the war. Second only to the Jews, Soviet prisoners of war were the largest group of victims of Nazi racial policy.
Bolding mine; there were already a million of them historically. If their combat value was often dubious they did at least free up German troops for employment elsewhere. At least one battalion per German infantry division serving in France at the time of the invasion of Normandy was an Ostbattalion, for example. Even the propaganda campaign for the Russian Liberation Army happened, with fliers, leaflet airdrops, etc.
All of this aided the Germans greatly; just as employing millions of slave laborers in their workforce did. Any idea of an internal revolution or overthrow of Stalin isn’t any more than a pipe dream under the best of circumstances though; he had an absolute iron grip on control of the government.
There is a good article at feldgrau on it [here](http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html); some bits from it:
> [@](#):
>
> The forerunner of the volunteer formations was a voluntary auxiliary service, of a para- military character, which was started in the autumn of 1941 by the German Commands on the front. On their own initiative, they organized auxiliary units of various services, made up of Soviet deserters, prisoners, and volunteers from among the local population. These so-called “Hilfswillige,” or “Hiwi,” were employed as sentries, drivers, store- keepers, workers in depots, etc. The experiment surpassed all expectations. In the spring of 1942 there were already at least 200,000 of them in the rear of the German armies, and by the end of the same year their number was allegedly near 1,000,000.(2)
>
> The next step taken by the German Commands in the east behind Hitler’s back was the organization of voluntary military troops, called “Osttruppen,” clad in German uniforms and designed to guard communication lines, fight Soviet partisans in the rear of the German armies, and sometimes even hold less important sectors of the front. These troops seldom exceeded the strength of a battalion. In the middle of 1942, there were already 6 such battalions in the rear of Army Group Center alone.
>
> The IV Propaganda Section of the Wehrmacht, WPrIV, realizing that Vlasov was one of the outstanding officers of the Red Army, took immediate interest in him. He was transferred to a special, comfortable camp for important prisoners, where he was subjected to a subtle propaganda which played on his aversion to the Soviet system. Soon the German supporters of collaboration with the anti-Soviet movement were convinced that their prisoner was the man they were looking for.
>
> His personal charm, his effective manner of speaking, his manners and abilities, and particularly his gift of inspiring confidence as well as his last important position in the Red Army, clearly predestined him to stand at the head of the Liberation Movement and Army, which in spite of Hitler’s strict orders was coming into being. In September, 1942, still in the POW. camp, General Vlasov wrote a leaflet calling on the officers of the Red Army and the Russian intelligentsia to overthrow the Soviet regime of Stalin whom he accused of being guilty of all the disasters which had befallen Russia. However, the leaflet also contained some Nazi propaganda, included without Vlasov’s knowledge.(12)
>
> This leaflet was dropped by the Luftwaffe in thousands of copies. The German protectors of General Vlasov attached great hopes to it. They expected that the results of this appeal would finally force Hitler to agree to the formation of the Liberation Army, and the results were indeed great. Day after day, the German Supreme Command received reports from all army groups that thousands of deserters from the Red Army who were coming over to the Germans, were asking for General Vlasov, and wanted to fight against the Soviets.
>
> During 1943 the number of volunteers in the eastern formations increased allegedly to some 800,000.(19) In September of that year, a new blow fell upon these formations.(20) According to exaggerated comments on German reports, Soviet troops broke through German lines chiefly because of the “treacherous” behavior of the Russian volunteer formations. Hitler flew into a rage; He ordered that all eastern formations be immediately disbanded, and that 80,000 of them, as first contingent, immediately be sent to France as coal-diggers.
>
> He also demanded that the progress of the disbanding was to be reported to him every 48 hours. The Chief of the General Staff was also furious and at first did not want to hear of any delay in carrying out the order. However, when he was finally convinced that the facts were greatly exaggerated, and that it was impossible to withdraw from the front more than 3-5 thousand men, he decided to intervene. After three days Hitler modified his order; Only formations from the broken sector of the front were disbanded.
>
> According to a statement of the General of Eastern Troops, seemingly made at that time, there were then on the entire Russian Front 427,000 ex-Soviet soldiers serving in the eastern formations, who would have to be replaced by German soldiers in case they were disbanded.(21) This figure did not include over 100,000 “Hiwi” who were not recognized as soldiers, nor Latvian, Estonian and Ukrainian formations. A few days later, when Hitler seemed appeased, he issued a new order: the Eastern Troops were to be withdrawn from the Russian Front and sent to other theaters of operation. Thus, in the autumn of 1943, some 70 to 80% of the Eastern troops were gradually withdrawn from the Russian front and moved to Poland, France, Italy, the Balkans, etc.
---
### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/5 "2015-08-21T18:43:27Z")
> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> Soviet POWs taken by the Germans 3.3 million died in captivity, they were the second largest group of victims of the [holocaust](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007178)
Nitpick : “the Holocaust” doesn’t refer to victims of nazism and the war in general.
---
### Author:  [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/6 "2015-08-21T20:06:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> Nitpick : “the Holocaust” doesn’t refer to victims of nazism and the war in general.
It’s debatable. The Nazis murdered ~11 million people out of racial policy; if the term “the Holocaust” refers only to the ~6 million Jews murdered or to all 11 million depends who you ask. [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust):
> [@](#):
>
> The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, “whole” and kaustós, “burnt”),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, “the catastrophe”), was a genocide in which approximately six million Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler’s Nazi regime and its collaborators.[3] Some historians use a definition of the Holocaust that includes the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to approximately eleven million.
In any event, the 3.3 million Soviet POWs were deliberately killed by the Germans as part of Nazi racial policy; they weren’t simply victims of the war in general. The first 600 victims murdered in the gas chambers at Auschwitz were in fact Soviet POWs.
---
### Author:  [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/7 "2015-08-21T21:28:36Z")
The with this type of question is that the answer is “then they wouldn’t be Nazis.” It’d be like asking how the Civil War would have turned out of the South freed and armed all their slaves at the beginning.
---
### Author:  [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/8 "2015-08-21T21:54:59Z")
The Nazis allowed non-Germans to fight alongside them as allies, particularly in north Africa.
So a “NAZI’S NAZI’S NAZI’S LET’S SHUT OFF OUR BRAINS” reply is a bit disingenuous.
If the Germans had capitalized on their liberator ethos among some people (particularly the Ukrainians, as mentioned), they would have done themselves a world of good, especially during their retreat from Barbarossa.
Hitler, however, was far too impatient to see the long-game in it all.
---
### Author:  [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-hitler-is-more-pragmatic-concerning/728413/9 "2015-08-23T12:30:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#):
>
> Hitler, however, was far too impatient to see the long-game in it all.
More a case of his having a different long game. Liberating Slavs, even in order to hasten the defeat of the Soviet regime, wouldn’t have featured in that, since - in his worldview - they would then still have to be conquered anyway. Territory, slave labour and ultimate annihilation was the objective. Why have two successive wars to accomplish what he thought he could achieve in one?