# What If I am Actually right? \[movements of poles\]
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [February 4, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125 "2011-02-04T06:08:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/121 "2011-02-10T00:01:49Z")
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> Ahhhhhh thats the problem… The arctic circle and north pole are just imaginary lines on the globe for navagation purposes they are stationary points if the world flipped upside down they would reamain.
>
> If you were on say the 40th parrellel and the sun rose at 6am it should rise at 6am all aroung the 40th parralle (Anyody knowhow to spell that word?) but it will not. because the planet isspinning atound the magnetic axix not the true north axes. Stick a compass in magnetic north and draw a circle and check the times around that and they will probably match and if you had a grid and used the pole as the center you will have moved based on those degrees. But your right the true north never changes. But I was never talking about true north.
This is again false. The planet doesn’t spin around the magnetic axis. It spins around the true north axis. That’s what “true north” means. It is that axis around which the earth spins. So if the continents drift around synchronously, to us sitting on the continents it would seem as if the north pole was drifting around, right?
The magnetic pole is different than the true pole because the earth’s magnetic field doesn’t line up precisely with the earth’s rotation.
So the arctic circle and the north pole aren’t just arbitrary points on a map, they are defined by the axis of rotation of the earth, and the axial tilt of the earth.
So if the Earth rotated through the magnetic pole, then the magnetic pole would be the true north pole. However, since it doesn’t, it isn’t.
It is certainly plausible that the continents could drift relative to the axis of rotation of Planet Earth, and in fact they have really done so. However, this drift is what scientists call “very small”, on the order of a few inches a year. And this amount of drift has been measured precisely, using simple trigonometry, lasers, and really really accurate clocks.
It is also physically possible for the axis of rotation of the Earth to change directions, and in fact this really has happened, and thousands of years ago the axis of rotation of the Earth pointed to a different part of the sky, and Polaris was not our pole star.
However, again, this rate of change is what scientists call “very small” and without precise measurements you’d only notice after thousands of years.
The reason we have an “arctic circle” and an “equator” and a “tropic of cancer”, is because the earth rotates through an axis, and we define the geographic north and south poles as the points of that axis. And since the direction of the axis doesn’t change, but remains tilted at 23.4 degrees no matter where the earth is in its revolution about the sun, this causes the seasons, and the midnight sun near the geographic poles in summer.
If you still don’t understand, try this article:
> **[Axial tilt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt)**
>
> In astronomy, axial tilt, also known as obliquity, is the angle between an object's rotational axis and its orbital axis, which is the line perpendicular to its orbital plane; equivalently, it is the angle between its equatorial plane and orbital plane. It differs from orbital inclination.
> At an obliquity of 0 degrees, the two axes point in the same direction; that is, the rotational axis is perpendicular to the orbital plane.
> The rotational axis of Earth, for example, is the imaginary line t...
and this one:
> **[Season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season)**
>
> A season is a division of the year based on changes in weather, ecology, and the number of daylight hours in a given region. On Earth, seasons are the result of the axial parallelism of Earth's tilted orbit around the Sun. In temperate and polar regions, the seasons are marked by changes in the intensity of sunlight that reaches the Earth's surface, variations of which may cause animals to undergo hibernation or to migrate, and plants to be dormant. Various cultures define the number The Norther...
and this one:
> **[Effect of Sun angle on climate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_sun_angle_on_climate)**
>
> The amount of heat energy received at any location on the globe is a direct effect of Sun angle on climate, as the angle at which sunlight strikes Earth varies by location, time of day, and season due to Earth's orbit around the Sun and Earth's rotation around its tilted axis. Seasonal change in the angle of sunlight, caused by the tilt of Earth's axis, is the basic mechanism that results in warmer weather in summer than in winter. Change in day length is another factor (albeit lesser). Figure 1...
and this one:
> **[Midnight sun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun)**
>
> Midnight sun, also known as polar day, is a natural phenomenon that occurs in the summer months in places north of the Arctic Circle or south of the Antarctic Circle, when the Sun remains visible at the local midnight. When midnight sun is seen in the Arctic, the Sun appears to move from left to right. In Antarctica, the equivalent apparent motion is from right to left. This occurs at latitudes ranging from approximately 65°44' to exactly 90° north or south, and does not stop exactly at the Arcti...
and this one:
> **[Polar night](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_night)**
>
> Polar night is a phenomenon that occurs in the northernmost and southernmost regions of Earth when the Sun remains below the horizon for more than 24 hours. This only occurs inside the polar circles. The opposite phenomenon, polar day or midnight sun, occurs when the Sun remains above the horizon for more than 24 hours.
> There are multiple ways to define twilight, the gradual transition to and from darkness when the Sun is below the horizon. "Civil" twilight occurs when the Sun is between 0 and ...
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/122 "2011-02-10T00:14:36Z")
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> Ahhh Perhaps if I had lied and told you I was the Head Professor of Plate techtonics at Oxford you would hang off my every word as if I were the pope maybe?
Of course I wouldn’t. I’d make note of the fact that the work you describe hasn’t been receiving serious consideration from the scientific community at large, even to point and laugh at, and begin to doubt that you actually held the chair you were claiming.
Seriously, have you discussed your hypotheses with any actual geologists? What have they told you?
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/123 "2011-02-10T01:18:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> Of course I wouldn’t. I’d make note of the fact that the work you describe hasn’t been receiving serious consideration from the scientific community at large, even to point and laugh at, and begin to doubt that you actually held the chair you were claiming.
>
> Seriously, have you discussed your hypotheses with any actual geologists? What have they told you?
Yes I have and as expected they do not teach this no would the entertain the idea of it much like telling a christian Jesus was the son of a German General who fathered him with Cleopatra who told Caesar he was his son and named him Caesarion… same responce. Like I said what if… Not THIS IS THE WAY IT IS!
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/124 "2011-02-10T01:20:17Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> This is again false. The planet doesn’t spin around the magnetic axis. It spins around the true north axis. That’s what “true north” means. It is that axis around which the earth spins. So if the continents drift around synchronously, to us sitting on the continents it would seem as if the north pole was drifting around, right?
>
> The magnetic pole is different than the true pole because the earth’s magnetic field doesn’t line up precisely with the earth’s rotation.
>
> So the arctic circle and the north pole aren’t just arbitrary points on a map, they are defined by the axis of rotation of the earth, and the axial tilt of the earth.
>
> So if the Earth rotated through the magnetic pole, then the magnetic pole would be the true north pole. However, since it doesn’t, it isn’t.
>
> It is certainly plausible that the continents could drift relative to the axis of rotation of Planet Earth, and in fact they have really done so. However, this drift is what scientists call “very small”, on the order of a few inches a year. And this amount of drift has been measured precisely, using simple trigonometry, lasers, and really really accurate clocks.
>
> It is also physically possible for the axis of rotation of the Earth to change directions, and in fact this really has happened, and thousands of years ago the axis of rotation of the Earth pointed to a different part of the sky, and Polaris was not our pole star.
>
> However, again, this rate of change is what scientists call “very small” and without precise measurements you’d only notice after thousands of years.
>
> The reason we have an “arctic circle” and an “equator” and a “tropic of cancer”, is because the earth rotates through an axis, and we define the geographic north and south poles as the points of that axis. And since the direction of the axis doesn’t change, but remains tilted at 23.4 degrees no matter where the earth is in its revolution about the sun, this causes the seasons, and the midnight sun near the geographic poles in summer.
>
> If you still don’t understand, try this article:
> [Axial tilt - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt)
> and this one:
> [Season - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season)
> and this one:
> [Effect of Sun angle on climate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_sun_angle_on_climate)
> and this one:
> [Midnight sun - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun)
> and this one:
> [Polar night - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_night)
The true north pole is just navagational markers along with all the lines on the map tey don’t exist just on paper. They don’t adjust the true north because it would be moving on a daily basis. Now the magnetic pole is not moving either the crust is moving on top of it and true north is like pinned to it so it never moves. True north is the center of the arctic circle magnetic north is the center of the polar icecap.
---
### Author:  [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/125 "2011-02-10T01:33:32Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#):
>
> For my $.06, that’s the most significant comment in this thread. Cool (in both senses)!
This is worth another $0.06: A co-worker of mine popped up at the North Pole in nuclear sub and hung around the area for two hours. He did me a favor by leaving a message I wrote in a plastic Coke bottle. That was 23+ years ago.
But if I do hear something, I’ll post about it here.
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/126 "2011-02-10T01:33:32Z")
OK lets try this … Lets suppose that the icecap in north americs instead of going to North Caraolina went to to South America. Now the earth spinning as it is now how would that be possible? Africa no glacier and North America covered. Were pointing true north africa hot NA frozen 3 mile icecap? A 30000 year arctic jet stream or somthing? Its getting the smae sun angle as africa and it frozen?
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/127 "2011-02-10T01:34:34Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#):
>
> This is worth another $0.06: A co-worker of mine popped up at the North Pole in nuclear sub and hung around the area for two hours. He did me a favor by leaving a message I wrote in a plastic Coke bottle. That was 23+ years ago.
>
> But if I do hear something, I’ll post about it here.
good on ya M8
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/128 "2011-02-10T01:42:12Z")
> **[Season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season)**
>
> A season is a division of the year based on changes in weather, ecology, and the number of daylight hours in a given region. On Earth, seasons are the result of the axial parallelism of Earth's tilted orbit around the Sun. In temperate and polar regions, the seasons are marked by changes in the intensity of sunlight that reaches the Earth's surface, variations of which may cause animals to undergo hibernation or to migrate, and plants to be dormant. Various cultures define the number The North...
Here is what I was trying to get across Look at the RECONING animation in this wiki. Now after looking tell me how the ice cap formed on one side and not the other. This animation if they labled it ice cap progression it would be the same. but not the ice age we has open water in the Arctic west no glaciers in alaska and siberia.
This animation speaks volumes.
---
### Author:  [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/129 "2011-02-10T01:58:37Z")
Why do narcissistic laypeople so frequently think they’ve discovered something that vastly more intelligent and well-funded scientists haven’t?
---
### Author:  [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/130 "2011-02-10T02:47:24Z")
:hijack:
> [@Ludovic](#):
>
> Doesn’t matter if you have enough Settlers to manage the pollution and change it all back to grassland.
You’re using Settlers? By the time pollution becomes a problem I’ve usually replaced them all with Engineers.
---
### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/131 "2011-02-10T04:33:57Z")
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> [Season - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season)
>
> Here is what I was trying to get across Look at the RECONING animation in this wiki. Now after looking tell me how the ice cap formed on one side and not the other. This animation if they labled it ice cap progression it would be the same. but not the ice age we has open water in the Arctic west no glaciers in alaska and siberia.
>
> This animation speaks volumes.
Except, it doesn’t. As I said, Fairbanks gets snow every winter. But not very much snow. You know how in North Dakota or Chicago you’ll read stories about how there was a blizzard that dropped 8 feet of snow?
That never happens in Fairbanks. It’s a heck of a lot colder in Fairbanks than it is in Chicago, but Fairbanks never ever gets blizzards that dump multiple feet of snow. It never happens. The snow pack at the end of winter is only a few feet thick, that’s all the accumulated snow for the winter. And another thing, at 40 below and 0 humidity, ice _sublimates_. In fall you’ll get icicles hanging from roofs. But they don’t last very long, they literally vanish into thin air as the ice turns directily into water vapor without melting.
So Fairbanks gets much less snow than the Canadian prairie. It’s a simple fact. And this is why, despite the fact that interior Alaska was colder than the ice sheets farther south, it wasn’t glaciated, because every year the little snow that fell melted every summer.
---
### Author:  [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/132 "2011-02-10T05:37:58Z")
Finally, we have a thread to rival [this classic thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140878)in both stubbornness and uninformedness. I am in awe.
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/133 "2011-02-10T09:25:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> So Fairbanks gets much less snow than the Canadian prairie. It’s a simple fact. And this is why, despite the fact that interior Alaska was colder than the ice sheets farther south, it wasn’t glaciated, because every year the little snow that fell melted every summer.
Yes that is all correct… But if it melted there was no ice age there! Thats the whole point of an ice age its cold!!! And beacuse Alsakahad no glaciers then it could not have been cold. even of it just got 1 inch a year after 30,000 years it would build up.and if it meleted then is was not cold enough. But there was a three mile thick glacier just 1500 miles to the east at the same parallel. Look at your sun links greenland gets the same sun at the same angle how could it possibly be different temperatures? Its like having a cold spot on the equator it doesn’t happen. True north is a line on a map, Magnetic north is the core axis point and cylestial north is at the center of the ice cap. And the earth revolves around that point not true north or magnetic. And siberia gets lots of snow if Alaska does not. No ice cap there either. And the ice cap in NA went to North Carolina! But none in Alsaka or siberia…
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/134 "2011-02-10T09:30:29Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#):
>
> Why do narcissistic laypeople so frequently think they’ve discovered something that vastly more intelligent and well-funded scientists haven’t?
Same reason well educated rocket scientists believe in science without question and people believe in gods that live in the skys granting wishes. I believe nothing and question everything. Critical thinking you scientologists call it.
---
### Author:  [@N8N8N8N](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N8N8N8N)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/135 "2011-02-10T09:42:51Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#):
>
> Finally, we have a thread to rival [this classic thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140878)in both stubbornness and uninformedness. I am in awe.
I’m not sure why a tampax shapped glacier only on half the planet covering from France to North Carolina while the other side is ice free makes sence to anyone? Say the ice wen to thr tropic of cancer would it not be logical to assume that it whould go all around the planet equally that makes perfect sence. What causeed this planetary cold sombody leave a door open or somthing on the east coast? and a heater in alaska?
---
### Author:  [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/136 "2011-02-10T12:13:41Z")
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> Same reason well educated rocket scientists believe in science without question and people believe in gods that live in the skys granting wishes. I believe nothing and question everything. Critical thinking you scientologists call it.
No. The scientists job is to question everything and they do it very well. The fact that they don’t come up with the answer you want, does not mean they haven’t asked the exact questions you are asking. As for your hypothesis, it has been explained how we know it is wrong many times in this thread, yet you continue to argue it. Critical thinking my ass.
---
### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/137 "2011-02-10T14:13:43Z")
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> Yes that is all correct… But if it melted there was no ice age there! Thats the whole point of an ice age its cold!!!
Wrong. An ice age is a time when continental glaciers form. And as I said before, whether an ice sheet forms doesn’t just depend on it being cold, it also depends on how much snow falls. See, even during an ice age, there was summer and winter. Snow falls in the winter, snow melts in the summer. You only get a glacier when so much snow falls in the winter that it doesn’t all melt in the summer.
So, if you have the same temperature in two places, but one place gets less snow, then the place with more snow can form an ice cap, but the place with less snow doesn’t.
> [@](#):
>
> And beacuse Alsakahad no glaciers then it could not have been cold. even of it just got 1 inch a year after 30,000 years it would build up.and if it meleted then is was not cold enough. But there was a three mile thick glacier just 1500 miles to the east at the same parallel. Look at your sun links greenland gets the same sun at the same angle how could it possibly be different temperatures?
That’s because it wasn’t different temperatures. Interior Alaska didn’t have a warm spot that kept it ice free. It was a DRY spot that got less snow, that’s why it was ice free IN THE SUMMER. It was, of course, covered with snow in the winter, but then in summer the snow melted. It’s not a matter of getting 1 inch of snow a year. Because if all the snow manages to melt in the summer, then it’s all gone. It’s only when snow doesn’t melt in the summer that you get a permanent ice sheet.
> [@](#):
>
> Its like having a cold spot on the equator it doesn’t happen. True north is a line on a map, Magnetic north is the core axis point and cylestial north is at the center of the ice cap. And the earth revolves around that point not true north or magnetic. And siberia gets lots of snow if Alaska does not. No ice cap there either. And the ice cap in NA went to North Carolina! But none in Alsaka or siberia…
Depends on your definition of “Siberia”. There were small parts of Siberia that were ice free, but actually the vast majority of Siberia WAS covered with ice.
And as for the notion that places at the same lattitude always have the same temperature, that’s just not true. The east coast of North America is colder than the west coast of North America, at the same lattitue. The east cost of North America is much colder than the west coast of Europe, at the same lattitue.
---
### Author:  [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/138 "2011-02-10T14:18:49Z")
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> Same reason well educated rocket scientists believe in science without question and people believe in gods that live in the skys granting wishes. I believe nothing and question everything. Critical thinking you scientologists call it.
Please don’t confuse Scientologists with science, critical thinking, good education, or anything else.
Please don’t use the phrase “believe in science.” Science is based on reasonable proof and clear disproof, never belief.
Please don’t claim that all deities live in the skies or that they grant wishes. Poseidon still controls the sea, and is more likely to grant 10m swells than a wish for smooth sailing.
Please don’t keep a mind so open that everything falls out. You’ll be forever cleaning up after yourself.
---
### Author:  [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/139 "2011-02-10T14:24:40Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#):
>
> Finally, we have a thread to rival [this classic thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140878)in both stubbornness and uninformedness. I am in awe.
At least we’re in MPSIMS not GQ. I suggest we play one or two more hands of “If we feed the troll {X}, will they eat it?” Then by tomorrow we should all get bored and wander off to other threads.
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-am-actually-right-movements-of-poles/570125/140 "2011-02-10T16:39:00Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#):
>
> Why do narcissistic laypeople so frequently think they’ve discovered something that vastly more intelligent and well-funded scientists haven’t?
> [@N8N8N8N](#):
>
> Same reason well educated rocket scientists believe in science without question and people believe in gods that live in the skys granting wishes. I believe nothing and question everything. Critical thinking you scientologists call it.
On the bright side, **rache** , he’s not disputing the narcissism.
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