# What if I didn't stop when those Wall Mart anti-theft buzzers go off? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 25, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887 "2004-04-25T06:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bsane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@bsane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bsane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/21 "2004-04-25T13:43:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **elfbabe** > Again, please do remember that they would technically have the legal right to detain you and to search items in your possession if you set off the alarm, according to the legal decisions I’ve seen. I hate to ask, but do you have a cite? > [@](#): > > Originally Posted **elfbabe** > it would seem that they ARE, in fact, legally authorized to do so as long as they have probable cause. It was my understanding, that in order for a private citizen (anyone other than a police officer) to legally ‘detain’ someone they **must** place that person under citizens arrest. Furthermore (in CA at least) you may only arrest someone for a misdemeanor if you have personally witnessed it. Setting off an alarm does not equal witnessing shoplifting. It might count as probable cause if there is a cop around to get involved, or for a search or something, but I don’t think it will have any bearing on a citizens arrest powers. Obviously a police officer has much broader arrest powers, but I’m assuming here that the security guards at Walmart aren’t off-duty cops. I would tend to ignore the security gaurds, unless they assaulted or arrested me- after that who knows, but I’m sure it would involve a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![olefin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d78d45/32.png) [@olefin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/22 "2004-04-25T14:19:12Z")
I don’t understand why the alarm is going off so much. We buy at Walmart almost every week, have for many years and I remember only one time the alarm went off? BTW, **SiXSwordS,** I have a CCW permit and so the gun is not tripping the alarm. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/23 "2004-04-25T14:21:07Z")
> [@bsane](#): > > I hate to ask, but do you have a cite? Why, I happen to have a page with a court case addressing that very issue! (At least, in the state of Washington) The site appears to be down, but [the Google cache](http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:-uUxUUO-_LkJ:www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/supreme/103wn2d/103wn2d0792.htm+%22probable+cause%22+%22citizen%27s+arrest%22+shoplifting&hl=en) includes all the necessary info, including quotes saying… > [@](#): > > Store employees have authority under the common law to use that degree of force which is reasonable under the circumstances to detain a person whom they have probable cause to believe has been engaged in shoplifting. > [@](#): > > Store personnel may detain a suspected shoplifter without force even absent a breach of the peace, consistent with the grant of civil and criminal immunity from liability to owners and authorized employees of mercantile establishments. RCW 9A.16.080 and RCW 4.24.220. However, no statutory authority to use force at the initial detention is granted unless a felony has been committed. SEE RCW 9A.16.020(2). **Nevertheless, under common law such authority is found.** “Since relatively few arrests are with the consent of the criminal, **the authority to make the arrest, whether it be with or without a warrant, must necessarily carry with it the privilege of using all reasonable force to effect it.** Whether the force used is reasonable is a question of fact, to be determined in the light of the circumstances of each particular case.” As other writings seem to establish that an alarm provides probable cause, I think this cite supports my my previous post. If anyone has evidence that this is different in a state other than Washington, please let us know. ---
**Author:** ![bsane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@bsane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bsane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/24 "2004-04-25T15:12:52Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > As other writings seem to establish that an alarm provides probable cause, I think this cite supports my my previous post. If anyone has evidence that this is different in a state other than Washington, please let us know. That is an interesting case, but it differs from the OP in that the lady was actually seen stealing the steaks, and then when they attempted to arrest her she resisted. They do mention that if the store had probable cause they could have done the same, and you’re saying (with research) that a buzzer alone is probable cause. The problem is that those system are notorious for false alerts. I’ve set them off a couple of times and always been waved through. With that experience in mind I would probably just keep walking next time. I don’t take them seriously and the most stores don’t either, if they suddenly decided something they ignored 90% of the time gave them probable cause, then I would argue it in court. Even if they don’t ignore it, 15 false alerts per day would probably hurt thier probable cause argument. And maybe I wasn’t clear, but I wasn’t suggesting fighting my way out of a store. If they want me bad enough to arrest me based on a weak ‘probable cause’ argument, then I’ll play the game ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/25 "2004-04-25T15:17:21Z")
> [@olefin](#): > > I don’t understand why the alarm is going off so much. We buy at Walmart almost every week, have for many years and I remember only one time the alarm went off? . One of the anti-theft things may have fallen off in their pockets, the wife’s purse, or they stepped on it and it got attached to a shoe or something. One easy way to find out would be to ask if it’s just Wal-Mart where **Roland** sets off the alarms or if it’s other stores. I suspect if he’s buying $125 worth of stuff, he’s buying a good quantity of it, leading the cashier to hurry and not deactivate everything. As to the OP, when I worked retail, we could follow you (and yell at you) and get your plate number, but we couldn’t grab you or anything. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/26 "2004-04-25T15:19:44Z")
> [@bsane](#): > > They do mention that if the store had probable cause they could have done the same, and you’re saying (with research) that a buzzer alone is probable cause. The problem is that those system are notorious for false alerts. Hey, I’m not saying they OUGHT to be probable cause, I’m saying that I have found information that states that they are probable cause. If you can find a legal source that says otherwise, I will be entirely receptive to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/27 "2004-04-25T15:29:49Z")
Umm…wouldn’t it be inheritly better to just shop someplace else? I mean, if the humiliation is getting _that bad_, you could just write their corporate office a brief letter, saying why you’re not shopping there anymore, & just give the place a pass. On another Board, a police officer mentioned thar 80% of all police officer injuries needing ER care or worse are caused by hand-to-hand. Why take the chance? Every day, some poor jerk punches another poor jerk in a bar, the second guy falls, breaks his neck & dies. The Judge gives Guy#1 life. Even the Judge hates this, but hey! Deliberate Violence +Death (Unintended)= Life Behind Bars. Change your shopping habits, dude. I did. No Wally-Mart for me, Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/28 "2004-04-25T15:32:35Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > On top of that I have a concealed weapons permit and usually carry my Heckler and Koch P2000 9MM with me at all times. Every Wal-Mart I’ve seen is posted for no weapons or guns. In most jurisdictions such as Arizona this means even if you have a concealed weapons permit you cannot carry as the store is private property. If this is the case you are already violating the law by having an illegally concealed weapon. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/29 "2004-04-25T15:51:45Z")
Just in case you would like some info from a former W-M employee… If the alarm goes off, the greeter should ask you stop and check your purchases with their stupid magnetic wand. When I was asked to fill in for the greeter position (I was a cashier at the time), I was told that (1) we could not open bags and check them by hand unless the customer voluntarilly suggested we do so and (2) we could not restrain the customer nor follow them out of the store. This was handed down to us as store/corporate policy. The folks that are detatined or followed by store security are the people that have been caught in the act of shoplifting, not just who have set off the alarm ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/30 "2004-04-25T17:37:50Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > I’m not sure what, exactly, you could be charged with in this case. The people at the store are not likely to be police officers, so I don’t THINK you could be charged with resisting arrest, though that’s just a guess on my part. Assault and battery, possibly assault with a deadly weapon, considering how you said you planned to resist. In my state at least, shopowners do have powers of arrest in shoplifting scenarios. There is an outside chance that you could rack up “resisting arrest” however you would have to have been arrested prior to that being a possibility. My reading of Ohio law indicates that if a suspect’s movement is not restricted through force and he is not informed he is under arrest, he is not in fact under arrest. You aren’t in Ohio, but this bears some consideration. This makes me think of something I saw in court in high school (I wanted to be a lawyer back then). There was a guy charged with resisting arrest. The suspect was informed by a sherriff’s deputy that he was under arrest while he was A) on top of said sherriff’s deputy and B) beating said sherriff’s deputy with a brick. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/31 "2004-04-25T17:42:45Z")
but I don’t think that means taking one (with the appropriate permit) means you are breaking the law, only that you could be asked to leave for breaking their rule. It would be like saying that I’m breaking the law for taking a pop into someplace that said “no drinks allowed”. They could eject me, but not prosecute me. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/32 "2004-04-25T18:20:31Z")
A 6’5" 265lb man who was trained in the Navy in hand to hand combat, packs heat while shopping, and enjoys boxing, karate, and “a pathological aversion to virtually all authority” needs a warning sign. And a neckstrap for that warning sign. Also, the body of the text is supposed to go in the “Message” field, not the “Title” field, except when posting a new thread. You seem to know how to do that though. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/33 "2004-04-25T18:22:04Z")
I’ll retract saying that it is specifically illegal Roland but that’s a poor analogy as I’m aware of no laws against carrying a soda. I’m due for a refresher but an Arizona permit only allows concealed carry where firearms are not already prohibited and that may include private property where the owner prohibits firearms. I can no more carry a concealed weapon into a store than I can a bar or a courthouse. As to prosecution for carrying on prohibited private property I don’t have any cites and in fact there may have not been any. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/34 "2004-04-25T18:24:47Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > but I don’t think that means taking one (with the appropriate permit) means you are breaking the law, only that you could be asked to leave for breaking their rule. It would be like saying that I’m breaking the law for taking a pop into someplace that said “no drinks allowed”. They could eject me, but not prosecute me. Depends on the state. In googling this issue, I found a [site](http://www.packing.org) that provides info on the concealed carry laws in various state. For example, in Texas the law permits private businesses to prohibit concealed weapons if they post a sign that specifically references the state law. (I looked up Texas because I figured it would have the loosest standards.) ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/35 "2004-04-25T18:25:39Z")
IAMAL Roland but if the store is posted against weapons you may be liable for criminal trespass at the very least. You might very well leave when they ask you to but the act has already been committed so you may still be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Farmwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@Farmwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmwoman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/36 "2004-04-25T18:39:15Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > As to whether you have to submit to the search, or to multiple or repeated searches: your size, training or proximity to deadly weapons should not really have any bearing on your rights or the stores! I’m glad to see I’m not the first to balk at the OP’s line of reasoning. As an unarmed woman of medium build with no combat training to speak of, I’d hate to think that my rights are more fragile than **Rolan Deschain’s**. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/37 "2004-04-25T20:16:34Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > IF I resisted what would I be charged with assuming that I haven’t stolen anything (which I never have). If they “wreastled me inside” could I sue for defamation or false light? In other words how much “reasonable suspicsion” goes with these automated buzzers. I feel certain that it is less than that which correlates with actually witnessing someone stealing, but am not sure. You may wish to read through these, many of the subtleties are addressed by myself and several ex and current store security types. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=100649&highlight=security](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=100649&highlight=security) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160812&page=2&pp=50&highlight=security](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160812&page=2&pp=50&highlight=security) If you draw down on someone who is making a legitimate detainment based on the laws of your area you will be lucky if you only lose your CCW permit. Inconvenience rarely equals false arrest, but its a great reason to shop elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/38 "2004-04-26T00:33:32Z")
ROLAND, ROLAND, ROLAND Yesterday you were telling us that you are not allowed to jerk off… > **[Will the Doctor chemically castrate me to reduce/eliminate my sex drive?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=252738)** > > My wife and I are having marital problems. She doesn’t want to seek couseling, or have sex. On the other hand we want to stay together at least until our son (currently three) is grown. Since I don’t want to “cheat” on my wife, and at 35 still... Today, you’re looking to cap someone who makes minimum wage. WTF? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/39 "2004-04-26T04:12:13Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > However, it seems to be about once every ten weeks. I am curious what the data is on the error rates of these devices as they are commonly deployed. Since a cashier is required to intentionally disable the RFID device in the package its probably going to be in the 2% range just like any other simpe manual task. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887/40 "2004-04-26T04:36:59Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > security personnel and only using force, if first met with force which would include an attempt to restrain. Here is where you go off track, store security using the minimum amount of force needed to detain you are not “starting it” you are by failing to comply with the detainment. > [@](#): > > Technically, if someone touches someone in a purposeful, unwanted manner that is a battery (unless they are someone authorized by law to do so). They are authorized, as needed to detain you. > [@](#): > > Thus, it seems reasonable that if I have contemplated this reaction that others (less restrained) have actually acted upon their contemplations. Something else to consider before you consider an ADW on a store employee doing his job within the bounds of the law. He may have armed backup. I am not aware of Walmart’s policies with regards to this but in the environment I was in I did have armed backup. If my backup arrived on scene and saw you pointing a gun at me you would have had a excellent chance of getting shot by one of my fellow security staff members for your trouble. If the officer in question is not trying to hurt you, only detain you, you have no reason to feel threatened enough to defend yourself with lethal force. In general I am an avid supporter of concealed carry programs, and I firmly believe that they are a greater help than harm to our society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-didnt-stop-when-those-wall-mart-anti-theft-buzzers-go-off/241887.md?page=3)