# What if I don't WANT eternal life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2003, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116 "2003-01-12T08:39:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/181 "2003-01-17T06:25:23Z")
Oops! I spoke too soon. Someone does hear me! Thanks, Ki42. You said: > [@](#): > > to take a stab at what ‘eternal life’ may mean (tho i am afraid it is very abstract and not comparable to ‘eternal consciousness’)… i think it may mean a state of existence not as ourselves (our egotistical selves i mean) but as a microscopic part of everything else - Some people have little glimpses of what the “unity experience” might mean. I don’t think of it in terms of “microscopic part.” The old film _The Incredible Shrinking Man_ said it this way: The infinitely small and the infinitely large are the same. Your posts are like having that “door into summer” swing open. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/182 "2003-01-17T06:46:20Z")
quote]_Zoe_ Why am I trying to convince you that bliss won’t be boring? You know that already, don’t you? Is it a matter of your not “knowing” or “believing” that our spirits can live in a state of total bliss? [/quote] It’s that I’m trying to grasp whether eternal bliss is static or if it’s temporal. That is, is it one perfect, endless, thoughtless moment of ecstasy, or is a flowing, changing consciousness? If so, what is it a consciousness _of_, exactly? God? What is God? What does it mean to be conscious of God? Temporal bliss is blissful because we experience it in contrast to suffering. Bliss without suffering is as meaningless as cold without hot, or light without dark. It seems to me that to speak of eternal bliss is like speaking of a place where everything is “up” and nothing is “down.” That’s what I’m trying to get a handle on. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/183 "2003-01-17T12:20:58Z")
It isn’t that one is meaningless without the other, but rather that one cannot be appreciated without the other. Have you never suffered? Have you never been cold? Have you never groped in darkness? If these things are a part of your eternal essence, how will you lose your bearings? If goodness is in infinite supply, and you are a node in a network of love, then all of eternity is ever new and changing — not from moment to moment, but at once. Like God, your Word will be your Will. Create a universe. Stage a moral play. Love your creatures. Visit among them. Suffer at their hands if you wish. Do even greater things than Jesus did. You will not miss temporality, because you can create temporality at Will. You may select from your eternity like an endless buffet. You need not wait for time. You may go forwards and backwards, up and down, in and out, ana and kata, and move in dimensions the likes of which you’ve never dreamed. You may realize all of your potential. Create new potential. And then realize that. If you find happiness in the journey, then you may journey forever. If you wish to rest, you may rest. If you wish to suffer, you may suffer. All that will be missing from your existence is sin, the severence of goodness. But you are a free moral agent. You may cut off goodness whenever you please, although the consequence will be death. Forgive me, but heaven is like Libertaria. If you do not wish to be loved, you may withdraw your consent. But others will not suffer on account of you. Your sin cannot harm them. They have no cells for you to smash, no transitory possessions for you to steal, no weakness for you to exploit. Heaven is the eternal fulfillment of your deepest yearnings, whatever they may be. But you already are “there”. This earthly life is your “day of orientation”. It is short for some and long for others, but instantaneous in reality. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/184 "2003-01-17T13:36:42Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by king of spain \* \*\*So your God is no better than a telemarketer? Congratulations. That’s one of the best arguments _against_ your version of Christianity that I’ve heard, and keep in mind, I’m someone who’d agree with you on the basic notion that we shouldn’t think God just lets us do whatever we want. I have no idea why people always say this. There is no necessary contradiction in believing that (1) Jesus’ death is the only thing that makes salvation possible for humans, and (2) it makes salvation possible for everyone, or for everyone who loves, or whatever, _not_ just for everyone who calls themself a Christian. Now don’t go pulling out John 3:16 on me, I’m not trying to start a debate on universalism in general or its Biblical validity. I’m just saying that the belief that non-Christians can be saved does not necessarily imply that “Jesus died in vain.” So God is right just because He’s all-powerful? Might makes right, in your religion? If not, then what are you trying to say? Because I’m not getting it. \*\*[/QUOTE[ I’m taking a break from the board but said I’d try to answer so I will respond to this one post. I don’t think I can explain this so you can understand I’m afraid. Perhaps **Joe or Jersey** will come in and do so. God is holy, righteous, pure, and just. He’s the Creator of everything. So, He is right. His holiness will not accept sin but He loves us so He provided a Savior for us to pay for our sins. I don’t know how to explain it any better than that. His ways are above our ways and His thoughts above ours. He has the right to say what’s what. He’s God and we’re not. Wer’e the creation, He’s the creator. **Jersey and Joe,** please do! I’m afraid my explaining skills leave much to be desired. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/185 "2003-01-17T13:47:26Z")
ADDENDUM: I don’t beleive in universalism. Not because I don’t want everyone to be saved but because it’s not what the Bible teaches. It’s a personal decision each person must make. “whosoever believeth”. God desires everyone to be saved but He won’t force anyone. Read John 3:36 Acts 4:12 1 Tim. 2:5 And I don’t have the reference right now but there’s another verse that states that “the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.” The only way for non Christians (the lost) to be saved is by accepting God’s provision which is trusing in Christ as their Savior. That’s God’s provision and plan, you can accept or reject it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/186 "2003-01-17T14:14:48Z")
I reject it. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/187 "2003-01-17T14:33:46Z")
Interestingly enough, **His** , the so called preaching of the cross is also foolish to me. I accepted it, yup - and now reject it. I’m much happier, and much better off. Besides, my former denomination has that handy dandy “eternal security” thing going on, so I’ll make it to heaven yet, you watch and see. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/188 "2003-01-17T14:38:03Z")
\*Originally posted by His4ever \* > [@](#): > > **I’m taking a break from the board** Dr. Seuss wrote a [book about your situation](http://www.spaghettibookclub.org/review.php3?review_id=1020) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/189 "2003-01-17T14:40:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I reject it. \*\* Forgive me when I say that you are not rejecting Christ. The gargoyle guarding the gate to hell that His4ever presents to you is not Christ. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/190 "2003-01-17T15:48:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I reject it. \*\* Then according to God, you are perishing. **Mars Horizon** , If you reject the cross how do you expect to have eternal security? Just because you go or went to a church that teaches it doesn’t mean it will osmosis into your soul. If you reject Jesus and what He did for you, the Bible says you’re lost and perishing, period. You may think you’re happier and better off, but this life isn’t all there is and a couple hundred years from now you just might wish you’'d made a different decision. But, then, I guess you reject what the Bible has to say about it, right? I think it’s very sad. Anyway, as I’ve said I need a break for a few days. That’s all I have to say at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/191 "2003-01-17T16:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Then according to God, you are perishing. > > **Mars Horizon** , If you reject the cross how do you expect to have eternal security? Just because you go or went to a church that teaches it doesn’t mean it will osmosis into your soul. If you reject Jesus and what He did for you, the Bible says you’re lost and perishing, period. You may think you’re happier and better off, but this life isn’t all there is and a couple hundred years from now you just might wish you’'d made a different decision. But, then, I guess you reject what the Bible has to say about it, right? I think it’s very sad. > > Anyway, as I’ve said I need a break for a few days. That’s all I have to say at the moment. \*\* P.S. I don’t believe that those who truly accept Christ ever reject Him. It shows they never really knew Him to start with. Please read 1 John 2:18-19 ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/192 "2003-01-17T16:11:49Z")
Somehow I knew you’d say all that. I have never talked with a fundamentalist Christian who could even **conceive** that one of their own might someday toss it all aside as so much rubbish. They’re that convinced of their own correctness. I too think it’s very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/193 "2003-01-17T16:37:15Z")
His4ever wrote: > [@](#): > > Then according to God, you are perishing. If you go away, as you have promised repeatedly to do, please take the father of lies with you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/194 "2003-01-17T19:28:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Libertarian_ > Forgive me when I say that you are not rejecting Christ. The gargoyle guarding the gate to hell that His4ever presents to you is not Christ. I know that, **Lib** , I’m not rejecting Christ, I’m rejecting a God of Fear and Hatred. God is beyond intellectual doctrines. To insist on the literal truth of a myth (even if the myth _is_ literally true) is to climb up the sign post instead of following where it leads. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/195 "2003-01-17T20:56:35Z")
Diogenes wrote: > [@](#): > > To insist on the literal truth of a myth (even if the myth is literally true) is to climb up the sign post instead of following where it leads. A stunning analogy beautifully conceived. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/196 "2003-01-17T20:56:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > **His ways are above our ways and His thoughts above ours. He has the right to say what’s what. He’s God and we’re not. Wer’e the creation, He’s the creator.** In other words, when you get right down to it, the entity you worship is so alien as to be incomprehensible. But he’s powerful, so we’d better jump through his hoops anyway, even if we don’t understand them. In other words, Azathoth. The problem becomes particularly acute when one points out that Jesus’ love doesn’t always seem very loving. If he loves us, why does he make us jump through hoops before he will forgive us? Why does he send people to hell for an honest mistake of opinion on a matter of historical fact? Simple: It really is love. It’s just that God’s love is so alien to normal ideas of love as to be incomprehensible. Now worship- or meet your doom. Could I have some more hallelujahs? Thus far, only Joe\_Cool has been willing to state that Miriam deserved what she got. BTW, Joe\_Cool, did the Christian deserve what he got? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/197 "2003-01-17T22:24:04Z")
His4ever said: > [@](#): > > God is holy, righteous, pure, and just. You left out the characteristic that is the heart of the matter for my Christian beliefs. God is **merciful.** Diogenes, if you groked eternal life in either the way I described it or the way Lib described it, would you still want to be obliterated? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/198 "2003-01-17T22:31:33Z")
I don’t know. I’m still thinking about it ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/199 "2003-01-18T08:24:18Z")
Ben, would you mind showing me where I said being murdered unjustly is deserving what you get? I said is that nobody is worthy of God’s acceptance on their own, hence the need for Jesus’s propitiary atonement. All I said is that an unjust murder doesn’t make a person worthy of God. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/200 "2003-01-18T08:27:49Z")
I’d really appreciate it if, in the future, you didn’t try to put words in my mouth (since I’m typing, I guess that should be in my hands? whatever). As I’ve said before, I’m sure you can find enough that you disagree with in what I’ve actually said that you don’t need to attribute things to me that I didn’t say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=11)