# What if I don't WANT eternal life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2003, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116 "2003-01-12T08:39:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/81 "2003-01-13T15:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*. > > And there you have it. A being so powerful that he can lash out in destruction for whatever reason he wishes, without having to make sense, without having to be just. Azathoth, the Demon Sultan, idiot-child at the center of the universe. > \*\* Uhhhh, when did God become answerable to you? And when did you become the one to decide what’s just or not? 31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies’ sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God. 32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble F39 seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day. 33 Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly: Nehemiah ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/82 "2003-01-13T16:08:26Z")
His4ever wrote: > [@](#): > > Uhhhh, when did God become answerable to you? And when did you become the one to decide what’s just or not? ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/83 "2003-01-13T16:09:45Z")
> [@](#): > > And ultimately, this is why I left Christianity. I realized that FCism is really a demon-worshipping cult. The demon in question is Azathoth, the gibbering, tentacled idiot-child at the center of the universe, squirming to the shrill pipings of his misshapen servitors, periodically lashing out to destroy just because he can. This thought has gone through my head more than a few times. I suppose it is entirely possible that fundamentalists are being deceived by a demon (or even the Devil himself). This demon knows full well the power of corrupting a manuscript that is supposedly incorruptable (ie the bible) and riddling it with mistranslations, thus making the fundamentalists easy pawns for the Devil. It would certainly explain alot of things. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/84 "2003-01-13T16:18:58Z")
**vanilla** , I thought you were talking about the _ultimate_ judge. I apologize for my misunderstanding. Anyone who is capable of loving other people is worthy of Heaven. Anyone who is not capable can be healed by an omnipotent, all-loving God and be _made_ worthy of Heaven. I don’t believe that repentance is a requirement for such a healing, or else God would not be omnipotent. People who cannot love on Earth are already in Hell. It is not their fault if they cannot love. They may do evil things, but they do it because they are suffering. God knows why they do what they do. God knows their agony. God’s love can heal them whether they seek it out or not. This does not mean that should not be subject to human justice. They should be, and they are, but human justice is a product of human passion. God is not ruled by human passion. Don’t insult God by saying that he has some need to cause eternal physical pain in order to be just. The fiery pit was invented for the gratification of man, not God. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/85 "2003-01-13T16:21:39Z")
It was an analogy. The pit was made for Satan and the demons. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/86 "2003-01-13T16:32:27Z")
Well, who created Satan and the demons? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/87 "2003-01-13T18:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*This thought has gone through my head more than a few times. I suppose it is entirely possible that fundamentalists are being deceived by a demon (or even the Devil himself). This demon knows full well the power of corrupting a manuscript that is supposedly incorruptable (ie the bible) and riddling it with mistranslations, thus making the fundamentalists easy pawns for the Devil. It would certainly explain alot of things. \*\* o\_\_O I never thought of this before, but it makes perfect sense!! I myself was turned away from Christianity by fundamentalists. I think fundamentalism does more to turn people away from God than it does to convert. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/88 "2003-01-13T19:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Well, who created Satan and the demons? 😉 \*\* And for what purpose? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by His4Ever_ > Couldn’t have said it any better, Jersey Diamond\*\* When do you ever even try? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Joe\_Cool_ > Jesus spoke of hell (gehenna) as a literal place, which is a place of torment. Even if it was just a colorful metaphor, “cast into hell, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” does not sound like a metaphor for any definition of oblivion that I’ve ever heard.\*\* That’s because you aren’t a Jew living in 1st Century Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/89 "2003-01-13T20:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Why are we assuming that ‘eternity’ means ‘an infinite number of days’? \*\* -Because one assumes that time, in some form, passes. Perhaps not the day/night schedule we’re used to here, or a period of 24 hours via a clock, but if time does not pass, then it’s a condition of stasis, nothing can happen. In other words, we’re given that those souls in Heaven can, indeed, interact- join the choir, play the harp, check out God’s new color of the day, “Shpluprle”- so at least the sense of time passing must occur. Go ahead and assume that there will be some sort of paradox-solving abstract metaphysical concept of heavenly Time, if that assuages your mind, but as it is, time is an abstract metaphysical concept right here on Earth. The joke goes, time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. There must be a similar concept at work in Heaven, else either you have no interaction (stasis) or “everything” is trying to occur at once. There _must_ be some form of linear sequence to events- we call this “Time”. Postulated that time, in some form, does pass, then by definition “eternity” is time without end. My snippets of trillions of millennia are, again, mere drops in the ocean of _eternity_. So again, what do these poor displaced souls _do_ for a hundred thousand million centuries? Then what do they do after that? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/90 "2003-01-13T21:26:08Z")
Doc wrote: > [@](#): > > The joke goes, time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. That’s exactly what eternity is: everything happening all at once and always. Eternity is an ontological state. > [@](#): > > So again, what do these poor displaced souls do for a hundred thousand million centuries? Then what do they do after that? There is no after eternity, nor before, just as there is nothing north of the north pole. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/91 "2003-01-13T21:30:26Z")
Lib, we are not bound by the OT law. I have already went over that so many times. VOID… Yes, Zoe, He speaks to me in prayers too, not just through the Bible. Consensus??? I am not sure what you mean. I don’t recall saying anything like that. Anyway, I am not sure if all fundamentalists believe the same thing. To be honest, I didn’t know I was a “Fundamentalist” until I started on SD. For a long part of my life, I did even know that there are some _“christians”_ that don’t follow the Bible. I thought that Christian and Bible went hand and hand. To me, as long as you follow the Bible and don’t add or take away from it, we probably agree. Haha Vanilla…Ribbit…I was going to change it, but I couldn’t be bothered. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/92 "2003-01-13T21:47:34Z")
Jersey You are not bound by _any_ laws except those that you make up for yourself and others. Whoever believes in the law is a slave to the law. God judges no one. Neither does His Son. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/93 "2003-01-13T23:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Jersey > > You are not bound by _any_ laws except those that you make up for yourself and others. Whoever believes in the law is a slave to the law. God judges no one. Neither does His Son. \*\* God judges no one? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I am done with this for now. I will pray for you! ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/94 "2003-01-13T23:30:17Z")
> [@](#): > > God judges no one? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Why is this ridiculous? > [@](#): > > I am done with this for now. I will pray for you! Please don’t tell me this is your standard answer when the debate gets too difficult. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/95 "2003-01-13T23:50:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*Why is this ridiculous? > > Please don’t tell me this is your standard answer when the debate gets too difficult. \*\* If you want my answer to this question, do a search! Lib just asked me something similar in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/96 "2003-01-13T23:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > If you want my answer to this question, do a search! Lib just asked me something similar in another thread. Or, you could do the charitable Christian thing and post a link. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/97 "2003-01-13T23:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* Most of the “Christians” on this board lets everyone know that God loves them, and that is very very good. Now let’s tell them what they must do for God. > You ever get those telemarketers that call and say you won a trip. > I am not stupid. I know there is more to it. I say, “what do I have to do?” they continue to tell me how beautiful the Virgin Islands are this time of year, and how clear the water is, and I say, “what do I have to do?”, they continue to tell me about scuba diving and how beautiful my free hotel will be… > Well, you know what? I have to buy a subscription of their magazines for 12 months. Why not just tell me you want to to buy a subscription, and along with the subscription you will give me a free vacation? I will ask you about it, I will decide if I like what it is about, and maybe I will do a little more research on your company._\* So your God is no better than a telemarketer? Congratulations. That’s one of the best arguments _against_ your version of Christianity that I’ve heard, and keep in mind, I’m someone who’d agree with you on the basic notion that we shouldn’t think God just lets us do whatever we want. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Joe\_Cool_ > **If there was another way to God and salvation, then Jesus died for nothing. And that seems to be what you’re saying: That the way to God is just loving everybody. Which is vital, don’t think I’m discounting the importance of love, by any means. But it’s not sufficient of itself. If it was, then Jesus died in vain.** I have no idea why people always say this. There is no necessary contradiction in believing that (1) Jesus’ death is the only thing that makes salvation possible for humans, and (2) it makes salvation possible for everyone, or for everyone who loves, or whatever, _not_ just for everyone who calls themself a Christian. Now don’t go pulling out John 3:16 on me, I’m not trying to start a debate on universalism in general or its Biblical validity. I’m just saying that the belief that non-Christians can be saved does not necessarily imply that “Jesus died in vain.” > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by His4ever_ > **Uhhhh, when did God become answerable to you? And when did you become the one to decide what’s just or not?** So God is right just because He’s all-powerful? Might makes right, in your religion? If not, then what are you trying to say? Because I’m not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/98 "2003-01-14T00:31:11Z")
**Jersey Diamond** , since you believe, as do I, that God judges people, why are you trying to do His job for Him? He’s a big Deity, with a few thousand years experience at a minimum. I’m sure He can handle the job on His own by now. I _know_ that there is a tremendous paradox in the idea that a serial killer who has practiced unspeakable cruelty yet accepted Christ as his Saviour and repented of his sin is, according to most Christian doctrine, guaranteed admission to heaven while an ordinary, decent person who has not accepted Christ as his Saviour has no such guarantee. I also know full well who I would prefer to share eternity with. I trust God’s wisdom, knowledge, justice, and mercy in this case because, unlike man’s, they are perfect. This is why I cannot condemn an individual or a group of individuals. It’s not my job. Just as well – I’m really not up to it. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/99 "2003-01-14T00:36:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*God judges no one? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. > > I am done with this for now. I will pray for you! \*\* Keep doing what you’re doing, **Jersey**! Someone may become aware of the truth through your words, perhaps someone who never decides to post, just read. You’re telling people the truth. They’ll never be able to say that they weren’t told. I too will pray. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/100 "2003-01-14T00:41:25Z")
Not judging anyone, CJ… Hopefully you are right His4ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=6)