# What if I don't WANT eternal life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2003, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116 "2003-01-12T08:39:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/101 "2003-01-14T00:53:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **That’s exactly what eternity is: everything happening all at once and always. Eternity is an ontological state.** -I see. Explain one unexplainable paradox with yet another unexplainable paradox, and say it’s all okay since said paradoxes are overseen somehow by an omnipotent being, capable of doing anything you can- or cannot- imagine. We can’t think of it, we can’t explain it, but don’t worry, God can so it’s all good. Everything happening all at once? How does that work? A baby is being born at the same instant it’s being conceived which is the same time he’s leaving for college, all the while both the father and mother are also simultaneously being conceived, born, taught and dying? Fine, there’s no birth or death in Heaven. But “time” must still occur, or else you’re already in Heaven having that nonconversation with Mark Twain- since, in Twain’s point of view, everything is already happening at once. Your death in however many years and supposed and assumed forthwith attendance in heaven to speak with Twain, would then be a “new” experience for ol’ Sam. Thus, events _cannot_ be happening “all at once.” And if, for some further leap of illogic, you assume “you’re already there”, then the whole being a good person to gain admittance to heaven is something of an empty sham, is it not? So, basically, either time- in some form- must pass in Heaven (events occur with some form of linear progression) or those hapless souls are held insensate, in some sort of stasis, disllowed any form of interaction. Or, the possibility which is _far_ more likely, there _is no Heaven_. An ‘eternity of oblivion’- which I believe is what **D the G** states is the original translation- means just that. You die, your body decays, it’s atoms and energy scattering in concordance with entropic law, the data which makes up you- your thoughts, personality and memories- is lost when the brain can no longer support the neurochemical balance. That which makes up “you” is lost, never to be seen again, scattered to the winds… yes, for an eternity. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/102 "2003-01-14T01:00:40Z")
Another site on [Hell](http://www.carm.net/doctrine/hell.htm) ---
**Author:** ![0887](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/977dab/32.png) [@0887](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0887)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/103 "2003-01-14T01:13:13Z")
Hmmm interesting!! 0887 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/104 "2003-01-14T01:35:58Z")
**H4E** , your link seems to be using some rather shallow exegetical methods, unsupported assertions (such as the claim that the parable of Lazarus “really happened”) and an anachronistic theological lens to “prove” that Hell is real. Why don’t you google on some Jewish interpretations of Sheol and Gehenna to get a more accurate view of how Jesus understood those words. Hello, **0087** , What a cryptic first post. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/105 "2003-01-14T02:04:06Z")
Praying for us won’t do, but showing evidence that Hell in the older manuscripts truly showed a literal place of eternal fire would be nice. This latest off cite states **Hell is one of those subjects that makes people uncomfortable.** Well, that’s the general ideal, in particularly for fundamentalist Christian’s who can’t imagine their religion without it. It’s a effective marketing tool for some sects. I fail to see why an unbeliever would feel uncomfortable about it. He simply doesn’t believe any of it. I imagine there are quite a few liberal and some moderate Christian denominations that would support DtC’s view on Hell being mistranslated. But for many fundamentalists, to paraphrase Joseph Wheless, their Christianity isn’t worth a damn without a literal Hell. Regardless of mistranslations, early church fathers and pious followers perpetuated belief in an everlasting fire for unbelievers. Augustine wrote several chapters on how bodies were supposed to burn forever. The reasons he gives seem comical reading them today. Tertullian expressed glee in seeing unbelievers in this eternal fire. I don’t lose any sleep over it. Do any Christian’s? If you don’t worry about yourself, do you worry about loved ones you know who doesn’t believe in your God? Or will your loving God fix it for you in Heaven to where you don’t give a damn about them either? JZ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/106 "2003-01-14T03:41:59Z")
DtC, I’ve found those three words in a Strong’s corcordance. I’ve actually found a fourth word which is mentioned only once. What do you make of how Hell is translated in II Peter 2:4? It uses the Greek word _tartaroo_. JZ ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/107 "2003-01-14T04:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Keep doing what you’re doing, Jersey! Someone may become aware of the truth through your words, perhaps someone who never decides to post, just read. You’re telling people the truth. They’ll never be able to say that they weren’t told. I too will pray. Sorry, **His4ever** and **JerseyDiamond** , but your subjective truths do not coincide with mine. 1. Please do not try to force them on others with scare tactics. 2. Please do not try to pass them off as objective truths. Maybe if I say this enough, you’ll start to understand why your method of witnessing is ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/108 "2003-01-14T05:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _John Zahn_ > DtC, I’ve found those three words in a Strong’s corcordance. I’ve actually found a fourth word which is mentioned only once. What do you make of how Hell is translated in II Peter 2:4? It uses the Greek word tartaroo. It’s actually [symbol]tartarwsas[/symbol] ("tartarosas’) or “Tartarus.” Tartarus was the deepest part of Hades in Greek mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/109 "2003-01-14T05:27:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Would you have a judge set free everyone who comes before him jsut cause he _loves_ them? > Would that be just? > You know it wouldn’t. > Justice must be served. > It was-when Jesus died for your sins. > However, repentence must also happen. \*\* Would it be just if a judge set all the Christians free, and then tortured everyone else to death, even for traffic tickets? Could I have a “hallelujah,” vanilla? Are you willing to stand and be counted? Just tell me that Miriam got what she deserved. If you think Jews get a special exception without repentance, then just imagine that Miriam is a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/110 "2003-01-14T08:21:19Z")
So, Diogenes, being murdered unjustly makes one righteous, is that what you’re saying? It’s sad that she was murdered and tortured along with her child, but that doesn’t change her situation between her and God. It doesn’t change the fact that every one of us is sinful and deserving of hell. And it doesn’t change the fact that no one comes to the father but by Jesus. The difference in your analogy is that the Judge has offered to take upon himself the sentence for everybody that comes through his court room, but sadly, not many people accept it. Many are called, but few answer. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/111 "2003-01-14T08:22:29Z")
OOPS!! My apologies. That last post was directed to you, Ben, not Diogenes. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/112 "2003-01-14T11:46:29Z")
**Joe, H4E, Jersey et al** When are you going to realise that you are **not** living your life according to The Bible? Or are you going around sacrificing goats all the time, as **Lib** and others have pointed out.? This ‘hell’ discussion too shows that what you live by is an \*\* interpretation\*\* of the Bible, a selection of things you **think** the Bible is saying. You seem to think the set of views from you church somehow, is THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH. It is , however, just **one** set of interpretations among the many. The point is that the bible says such an enormous amount of things, some of which are contradicting, others outdated metaphores and concepts we don’t understand anymore. You pick and choose from the bible, just as everybody else. You concentrate on certain aspects, while minimizing and ignoring others. Then there are the many influences on your views from other religions and cultures, that you don’t even notice. (like this concept of “hell”) You honestly believe that you simply can read the Bible and all will be revealed. That that is exactly what you are doing. If it were that simple, please explain to me the truly staggering number of different denominations within the Christian religion today. That’s not even thinking of all the christian movements in the past, that haven’t survived the inquisitions, or all the Jewish and Muslim versions. also based on that same book. Yet all of these peoples have gotten it wrong and you have somehow stumbled onto the ONE AND ONLY PATH. And you blink and wonder why we call you arrogant. Your version of Christianity is just another interpretation, like all the others. Could you do me a favor? Could you compile a list for me with all the different denominations of the Judeo-Muslimo-Christian faith on it, please? When you’re done can you explain to me why we should adhere any more credence to your views than to all the others. And we haven’t even looked at why the Judeo-Muslimo-Christian religion should have it right and all of the other religions not, in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/113 "2003-01-14T11:46:30Z")
Jersey wrote: > [@](#): > > God judges no one? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Me, too. That’s why I rejoiced when I read it! **"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."** — Jesus (John 5:22) **"You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one."** — Jesus (John 8:15) * * * His4ever wrote: > [@](#): > > You’re telling people the truth. They’ll never be able to say that they weren’t told. I too will pray. Pray hard, Sister. Pray very hard. **"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."** — Jesus (John 9:41) ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/114 "2003-01-14T12:08:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Latro \* > **Joe, H4E, Jersey et al** > When are you going to realise that you are **not** living your life according to The Bible? Or are you going around sacrificing goats all the time, as **Lib** and others have pointed out.? > This ‘hell’ discussion too shows that what you live by is an \*\* interpretation_\* of the Bible, a selection of things you **think** the Bible is saying. > > You seem to think the set of views from you church somehow, is THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH. It is , however, just **one** set of interpretations among the many. > The point is that the bible says such an enormous amount of things, some of which are contradicting, others outdated metaphores and concepts we don’t understand anymore. > You pick and choose from the bible, just as everybody else. > You concentrate on certain aspects, while minimizing and ignoring others. Then there are the many influences on your views from other religions and cultures, that you don’t even notice. (like this concept of “hell”) > > You honestly believe that you simply can read the Bible and all will be revealed. That that is exactly what you are doing. > If it were that simple, please explain to me the truly staggering number of different denominations within the Christian religion today. That’s not even thinking of all the christian movements in the past, that haven’t survived the inquisitions, or all the Jewish and Muslim versions. also based on that same book. > Yet all of these peoples have gotten it wrong and you have somehow stumbled onto the ONE AND ONLY PATH. And you blink and wonder why we call you arrogant. > > Your version of Christianity is just another interpretation, like all the others. > Could you do me a favor? > Could you compile a list for me with all the different denominations of the Judeo-Muslimo-Christian faith on it, please? > When you’re done can you explain to me why we should adhere any more credence to your views than to all the others. > > And we haven’t even looked at why the Judeo-Muslimo-Christian religion should have it right and all of the other religions not, in the first place. First of all, you don’t know me, so don’t assume that you know that “I don’t live by the Bible.” Now, about the goat… :rolleyes: The sacrafice was already made, or did you miss that part? I know you were probably very proud of your post, but it is silly. Have you read my views on these subjects in past posts? I don’t recall ever seeing your name before! I am not about to rehash the OT thing again. No need to compile a list. Here goes. If any other “christian” religion contradicts, adds, takes away from the Bible, they are wrong…Now, wasn’t that easy? Bye. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/115 "2003-01-14T12:12:05Z")
**His4ever** , I need to take a break… I need some praying time…It’s all you… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/116 "2003-01-14T12:17:33Z")
Judging by your response, you really _do_ need a break. Just a quick one, then… You add a concept of “hell” that isn’t in the bible, therefore your version of “christianity” must be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/117 "2003-01-14T13:19:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\ ***His4ever** , I need to take a break… I need some praying time…It’s all you… 😉 \*\* I know what you mean, **JerseyDiamond** , and I’ll be praying too. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/118 "2003-01-14T14:12:48Z")
Re: who created satan and the demons. God did. He created them with free will. They rebelled. Hell was made for them. They didn’t even need faith; they saw God, and yet rebelled against Him. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/119 "2003-01-14T14:14:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > > No need to compile a list. Here goes. If any other “christian” religion contradicts, adds, takes away from the Bible, they are wrong… \*\* Agreed. Jesus is the only way. Not open-minded? So? its true, and thats all that matters. I can’t prove it til after you die, then it will be too late. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/120 "2003-01-14T14:26:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _vanilla_ > Re: who created satan and the demons. > God did. > He created them with free will. > They rebelled. > Hell was made for them. > They didn’t even need faith; they saw God, and yet rebelled against Him. Didn’t God know they would rebel before he created them? Didn’t they know they could not defeat God? Why would God create something he knew would be evil? Why would satan fight a battle that he knows he can’t win? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=7)