# What if I don't WANT eternal life? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2003, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116 "2003-01-12T08:39:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/121 "2003-01-14T14:26:49Z")
**vanilla** - I assume when you say it’s “true” that you mean the first definition of “true”- **"Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous**? And, how exactly can we determine that your unverifiable claims about an afterlife and the conditions applied to it are “consistent with fact or reality?” How can we determine that your claims are not false or erroneous? Oh, **faith**? I thought so. It’s a tired old argument. Mars ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/122 "2003-01-14T14:46:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Agreed. > > Jesus is the only way. > Not open-minded? So? its true, and thats all that matters. > I can’t prove it til after you die, then it will be too late. \*\* Vanilla. I beg you to reconsider your agreement. Just to refresh your memory, here is what you agreed with: > [@](#): > > No need to compile a list. Here goes. If any other “christian” religion contradicts, adds, takes away from the Bible, they are wrong… That establishes the Bible as the standard of truth. But I tell you that the same Jesus Whom you say is the Way is also the Truth. Jesus will not lose any of His God-ness if the Bible contains a mistake. But if Jesus is not God, then the Bible is worthless. When we are on the desert island, this is what I will tell you: Jesus is God. God is love. Leave your mind closed, if you wish. But please do not close your heart. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/123 "2003-01-14T14:51:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Didn’t God know they would rebel before he created them? > Didn’t they know they could not defeat God? > Why would God create something he knew would be evil? > Why would satan fight a battle that he knows he can’t win? \*\* Yes, he knew. They may have bene stupid enough to think they could defeat Him. Why did He create man then? Because if he stopped fighting, he still wouldn’t win. Too much hate and ego I’m guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/124 "2003-01-14T14:53:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\* > Jesus is the only way. Ok, even if we to assume that cristianity has it right over the other religions, which one is Jesus’ way? The Greek Orthodox? The Catholic? The Lutherian? The 7th Day 2:25 PM Advent With Purple Stripes? \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/125 "2003-01-14T14:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Jesus will not lose any of His God-ness if the Bible contains a mistake. But if Jesus is not God, then the Bible is worthless. > > agreed with this. I am sure there are contradictions in the Bible. > Jesus is God, IMHO. > He is the way, I didn’t say the Bible was the way, it points toward Him. > > When we are on the desert island, this is what I will tell you: Jesus is God. God is love. Leave your mind closed, if you wish. But please do not close your heart. \*\* No, I’m trying to keep my mind open here. You are doing a good job of making me think on these things, and doing it in a not-nasty manner. God go with you, Mr. Lib. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/126 "2003-01-14T14:55:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _JerseyDiamond_ > Now, about the goat… The sacrafice was already made, or did you miss that part? > I know you were probably very proud of your post, but it is silly. Ok, let’s play along with that “old covenant/new covenant” stuff, just for fun. Why are you ( **Jersey** ) or **H24** , or **vanilla** posting on this board given what the _ **New** Testament_ says about women speaking or teaching about religious matters: > [@](#): > > \*\*1 Timothy 2:11,12 > > _11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent._\*\* I also wonder if you think that women who don’t have children can go to Heaven, since _Timothy_ goes on to specify that as the criterion for a woman’s salvation: > [@](#): > > _13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. **15But women will be saved through childbearing** –if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety._ Sounds to me like if you want to live by the “new covenant,” you’re supposed to keep your mouth shut and have babies-- or is _Timothy_ wrong? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/127 "2003-01-14T14:55:27Z")
That middle paragraph which is bolded is my reponse to what lib said. I’m not that computer savvy, so I dunno how that happened. I repeat, the middle paragraph of bolding was my words. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/128 "2003-01-14T15:02:58Z")
I got your message, Vanilla, and thank you! 🙂 Make no mistake. Whoever believes that the Bible may not be added to, contradicted, or taken away from — that person believes that the Bible is the Truth. The One Whom the Bible points to loves everyone. “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit **without limit**.” John 3:34 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/129 "2003-01-14T15:21:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _vanilla_ > Yes, he knew. > They may have bene stupid enough to think they could defeat Him. > Why did He create man then? > Because if he stopped fighting, he still wouldn’t win. > Too much hate and ego I’m guessing. I think we should back up a tick and recognize that none of this stuff about Satan rebelling, or a war for Heaven is in the Bible, but I’m interested in the more abstract question of why God created evil. If God created something that he knew would be evil, then he, himself, created evil. If God does not want evil (or satan) to exist, then he has but only to will it away and it is gone. What need is there of a “battle?” So evil was created, and is sustained, only by the will of God and nothing else. Why? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/130 "2003-01-14T15:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > > If God does not want evil (or satan) to exist, then he has but only to will it away and it is gone. What need is there of a “battle?” > > \*\* IMHO, he wants humans to choose. Theres nothign to choose between if Satan has been dispatched already-though IMHO he will be. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/131 "2003-01-14T15:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I think we should back up a tick and recognize that none of this stuff about Satan rebelling, or a war for Heaven is in the Bible, but I’m interested in the more abstract question of why God created evil. > > If God created something that he knew would be evil, then he, himself, created evil. > > If God does not want evil (or satan) to exist, then he has but only to will it away and it is gone. What need is there of a “battle?” > > So evil was created, and is sustained, only by the will of God and nothing else. > > Why? \*\* Forgive me for butting in, Diogenes, but I’d like to share my point of view on this with you, and yet I don’t want to hijack your thread forty ways from Sunday. Should I respond here? Open another thread? Just shut the hell up? Or what? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![porkchop\_d\_clown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@porkchop\_d\_clown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porkchop_d_clown)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/132 "2003-01-14T15:40:24Z")
A couple of points to those who are quoting the bible about Hell. 1. In the OT, “Hell” (Sheol) was not a place of punishment, it was where the dead hung out - similar to the Hades of the Greeks. 2. If I remember my bible correctly, those who are not saved by the final trump are destroyed completely, so eternal life is only for the saved. 3. Modern Christian theology (fundamentalists aside) defines Heaven and Hell as relationships with God, not places. Just as Mephistopholes said in “Faust” - “Why this is Hell, nor am I ever out of it.” A torture chamber can be heaven, a paradise can be hell - it’s your attitude that counts. As to Diogenes original question: I’ve had the same one. There have definitely been times when eternal rest seemed far preferable to the alternative. Heaven, as conceived in the Middle Ages, seems like spending your existence stroking the Big Guy’s ego. While I doubt He would actually want that (you’d think that even He would get bored of the same song over and over), what \do\ you do for eternity? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/133 "2003-01-14T15:50:04Z")
Go ahead, **Lib**. I just meant my OP to be a starting point for a discussion of concepts of the afterlife. I had a feeling we would end up discussing the whole _Paradise Lost_ scenario, and the paradoxes that arose from it. Anyway, I’m the one who asked the questions about God creating evil, so it would be sort of churlish for me to cry “hijack” if somebody answers them. By all means, give me your input. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/134 "2003-01-14T15:54:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*IMHO, he wants humans to choose. > Theres nothign to choose between if Satan has been dispatched already-though IMHO he will be. \*\* So once the end has come, when all people are one in love and one with God, there will be no need for Satan or demons. Hence the creation of the pit for Satan and demons. God sees a time when all will come to him so there will be no need to test people. The evil inclination (Satan) will disapear and will be replaced by love. BTW, angels do not have free will. They are automotons who do God’s will, simple tools for his purpose. This includes the angels used for doing good and the angels used for doing evil. All are under the direction and control of God. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/135 "2003-01-14T16:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*IMHO, he wants humans to choose. > Theres nothign to choose between if Satan has been dispatched already-though IMHO he will be. \*\* That still leaves a very big ‘WHY?’. What’s the point? More importantly, what’s the choice? Fundamentalism? Wasn’t it said there would be false prophets? As the fundies are a fairly recent sect, that would make them highly suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![0887](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/977dab/32.png) [@0887](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0887)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/136 "2003-01-14T16:13:44Z")
Yes I also believe eternal life is for the saved. If you choose to not be saved and believe on Jesus, then you have no eternal life. You are destroyed. Better not to be than suffer forever outside of time in a burning hell. I know our God would not do that to us for a few years here on earth. 0887 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/137 "2003-01-14T16:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Go ahead, **Lib**. I just meant my OP to be a starting point for a discussion of concepts of the afterlife. I had a feeling we would end up discussing the whole _Paradise Lost_ scenario, and the paradoxes that arose from it. Anyway, I’m the one who asked the questions about God creating evil, so it would be sort of churlish for me to cry “hijack” if somebody answers them. By all means, give me your input. 🙂 \*\* As you know, my first premise is “God is Love”, with love being the means of expressing goodness. So, that’s what God is: the expression of goodness. That means that goodness is His very nature. He could choose to do evil, yes, but only by choosing to destroy Himself. He therefore did not create either goodness or evil. Goodness has always existed as an actuality. Evil has always existed as a potential. But why were we created? God created man as an agent for His expression. Our creation as free moral agents expands God’s love beyond mere narcissism. Man actualizes evil by rejecting God, thereby shutting off the flow of goodness and stifling the spirit of God within him. Sorry that’s so brief, but it’s a pretty simple concept that doesn’t need a lot of narrative, I don’t think. Unless, as usual, all I’ve done is manage to confuse and frustrate. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/138 "2003-01-14T16:33:34Z")
**porkchop** , thanks for helping to clarify what I didn’t do a great job of explaining in all my “hell” talk. Yes, Sheol or Hades (same place, different languages) was seen as a sort of undergroubd holding tank for souls awaiting judgement day. Some parts of Hades were worse than others (Tartarus was the worst) but, for the Jews, it was not _eternal_. On judgement day, the good would be granted eternal life on Earth (in a sort of restored Eden). The bad would be “cast into a fire” (i.e. utterly destroyed; obliterated). Sometimes Hades or Sheol were just metaphors for death ( like referring to “the grave” or saying that someone is “six feet under.”) Jesus’ statements about the Valley of Hinnon were meant to illustrate the final destruction of the soul and the body. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/139 "2003-01-14T17:13:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*_Originally posted by Libertarian_ > As you know, my first premise is “God is Love”, with love being the means of expressing goodness. So, that’s what God is: the expression of goodness. That means that goodness is His very nature. He could choose to do evil, yes, but only by choosing to destroy Himself. > > He therefore did not create either goodness or evil. Goodness has always existed as an actuality. Evil has always existed as a potential. > > But why were we created? God created man as an agent for His expression. Our creation as free moral agents expands God’s love beyond mere narcissism. Man actualizes evil by rejecting God, thereby shutting off the flow of goodness and stifling the spirit of God within him. > > Sorry that’s so brief, but it’s a pretty simple concept that doesn’t need a lot of narrative, I don’t think. Unless, as usual, all I’ve done is manage to confuse and frustrate.\*\* Not confusing at all, (to me, at least) but maybe not a traditional christian answer. I wonder if you know how close your views are to some Eastern theologies, specifically some aspects of Vedantism and even Zen Buddhism. In these views, love is our natural state, but we are impeded by our egos, and the passions (which all break down to fear and desire) which rule the ego. If we just let go of our egos we feel our oneness with God (however you imagine “God.” Hinduism sees all formal concepts of God as metaphorical expressions of the ultimate, unknowable Brahman) and we will be in Samadhi (Satori, Nirvana) the ultimate state of love and bliss, which is always just under the surface. It is not something which is grasped for. It is waiting only for us to let go of our egos. The metaphor of a monkey reaching into a jar for a piece of fruit is sometimes used to illustrate this. The monkey can’t get it’s hand out of the jar as long as it is grasping the fruit. All he has to do is let go of the fruit, but he is too greedy and stupid to realize this. Our egos are like the monkey. There are many described paths or “yogas” for freeing our egos, but the key is love. Love for others is the only emotion which we can be sure is all good. Love is non-selfish. Love kills the ego. The more we love, the freer we become. As Jesus said, it is easy to love our families, our spouses our children. It is not so easy to love our enemies, and to do so sincerely. But love our enemies we must. As long as we withhold any love at all, we feed the ego. The ego is extremely subtle and deceptive. It is the whispering serpent which convinces us that we love because we do good things. If we give a dollar to a homeless man, the serpent tells us that we have shown love. This is an extremely easy trap to fall into. I think that this is what the Bible means when it speaks of acts, alone, not being adequate. If we do good things, but we do not love sincerely, then we are still in hell and we are still feeding the serpent. The serpent often grows fatter from good deeds than from bad ones. I could go on and on about this, but I’ve grown far enough afield from the topic. Maybe a separate discussion of Eastern/Western commonality would be threadworthy. Let me know what you think. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116/140 "2003-01-14T17:18:29Z")
Not necessary for me, but thanks. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-dont-want-eternal-life/148116.md?page=8)