# What if I stole something from North Korea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803 "2010-08-19T23:21:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/1 "2010-08-19T23:21:57Z")
And I brought it back here to the US, and the government knows I stole it. Since they are tops in almost any list of rogue nations, do I have any legal obligation to return the item or be punished or do most countries just toss a collective “fuck off” or North Korean demands? (I’m assuming we don’t have an extradition treaty with them) The broader issue I’m trying to figure out is if the US is currently hostile to a foreign nation, would I be punished for breaking that nation’s laws? This is of course assuming there isn’t any indirect political pressure to turn me over or punish me Examples: If I were in Cuba (legally) and stole a large sum of money from Castro himself, would I have to pay it back (or do jail time)? What if I snuck into North Korea and shot a high ranking NK military official and escaped? What if I went to Iran and blew up a supposed nuclear plant? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/2 "2010-08-19T23:24:34Z")
The US has no extradition treaty with North Korea so presumably even if the North Korean’s were to formally ask for you to be handed over (seems unlikely), they would ignore the request. > **[List of United States extradition treaties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties)** > > This list of United States extradition treaties includes 116 countries. The first U.S. extradition treaty was with Ecuador, in force from 1873. The most recent U.S. extradition treaties are with Kosovo and Serbia, in force from 2019. > The U.S. does not have an extradition treaty with China, Indonesia, Iran, Mongolia, Russia, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Vietnam and many other nations. > Legend Same goes for Iran, but bizarrely looks like the US does have one with Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/3 "2010-08-19T23:29:06Z")
Gee, I don’t know… What would happen if you assaulted a fugitive murderer? What would happen if you stole some thing Bernie Madoff legitimately owned (had not acquired with his stolen money)? I tend to think that a crime is a crime…regardless of the guilt or innocence of the victim of the crime. The person in NK that you steal from has rights as an individual, whether the NK gov’t recognizes them or not. The people who you harm while blowing up a reactor in Iran have rights…and I tend to think that the international community would recognize the rights of indiviudals even if the gov’t isn’t playing ball. Are you thinking of living out the fantasies expressed in the “Soldier of Fortune” magazines/books/video games? ETA: Of course all this assumes you are acting alone, and without the backing of a major country…who would then take whatever fallout may come from your actions since it “ordered” you to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/4 "2010-08-19T23:32:47Z")
That’s not to say there would be zero repercussions. Who do you think you are, Gavrilo Princip? If Kim Jong Il and Big Daddy China raised enough of a stink, it could become a political Incident that begs for remediation. I’m not suggesting that you would be handed over, but you would have caused your country some level of angst. ---
**Author:** ![SmithCommaJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@SmithCommaJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmithCommaJohn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/5 "2010-08-19T23:35:15Z")
> [@echo6160](#): > > Gee, I don’t know… > > What would happen if you assaulted a fugitive murderer? > > What would happen if you stole some thing Bernie Madoff legitimately owned (had not acquired with his stolen money)? > > I tend to think that a crime is a crime…regardless of the guilt or innocence of the victim of the crime. The person in NK that you steal from has rights as an individual, whether the NK gov’t recognizes them or not. > > The people who you harm while blowing up a reactor in Iran have rights…and I tend to think that the international community would recognize the rights of indiviudals even if the gov’t isn’t playing ball. > > Are you thinking of living out the fantasies expressed in the “Soldier of Fortune” magazines/books/video games? > > ETA: Of course all this assumes you are acting alone, and without the backing of a major country…who would then take whatever fallout may come from your actions since it “ordered” you to do it. Er, what? I think OP was asking about the legal consequences of these actions, and what recourse, if any, these countries would have. He wasn’t asking about the ethics involved. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/6 "2010-08-20T02:02:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The broader issue I’m trying to figure out is if the US is currently hostile to a foreign nation, would I be punished for breaking that nation’s laws? Generally extradition requires a treaty to be in place, under [USC 18, §3184.](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00003184----000-.html) There does appear to be one exception to this: if [your crime is an act of violence against a U.S. citizen](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00003181----000-.html), you can be extradited to that country to face justice. None of your examples would fit this criterion, though, unless there happened to be a U.S. citizen visiting the nuclear plant when you blew it up. ETA: Oh, and any extradition that isn’t specifically allowed by treaty or statute is pretty much out, according to the Supreme Court: [Valentine v. United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine_v._United_States). So the U.S. couldn’t legally extradite you in any of the above situations (assuming you didn’t kill any Americans.) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/7 "2010-08-20T02:21:33Z")
It depends. If you stole the USS Pueblo you’d probably get a medal. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/8 "2010-08-21T07:58:53Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > It depends. If you stole the USS Pueblo you’d probably get a medal. I believe that under both US and international law the Pueblo would be US property. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/9 "2010-08-21T10:04:02Z")
North Korea has nothing [del]worth stealing[/del]. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/10 "2010-08-21T11:19:02Z")
What about US federal laws govering stuff from North Korea getting brought into the US–are there any such laws? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/11 "2010-08-21T12:24:20Z")
You can steal all the [fighter jets you can get away with](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cold_War_pilot_defections#North_Korea): > [@](#): > > On September 21, 1953, 21-year old [No Kum-Sok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Kum-Sok), a senior [lieutenant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant) in the [North Korean](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea) [air force](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_force), flew his [MiG-15](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-15) to the [South](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea). Considered an intelligence bonanza, since this fighter plane was then the best the Communist bloc had, No was awarded the then immense sum of $100,000 and the right to reside in the United States. An offer to return the MiG was ignored, and the airframe now on display at the [National Museum of the United States Air Force](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_the_United_States_Air_Force), [Dayton, Ohio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton,_Ohio). ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/12 "2010-08-21T13:24:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What about US federal laws govering stuff from North Korea getting brought into the US–are there any such laws? I brought stuff back into the US from North Korea. They guys at customs/immigration didn’t care at all that I had been to North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/13 "2010-08-21T13:30:32Z")
**Fear Itself** : That’s interesting. When Viktor Belenko defected from the USSR with his MiG-25, we eventually returned the craft in thirty crates. Of course, he defected in 1976, so perhaps we were a bit more willing to play somewhat nicer with the Reds by that point. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/14 "2010-08-21T14:41:32Z")
As mentioned upthread, the US government would not be thrilled with people creating international incidents. But more to the point, even disallowing respecting a foreign nation’s laws, doesn’t the US have it’s own laws against various acts of brigandage/ piracy, etc. even if they take place out of country? Re. Cuba: my wild-a\*\*ed-guess, but I think after a series of notorious airplane hijackings to Cuba, the US negotiated the extradition treaty with Cuba, probably in exchange for not allowing Cuban expatriots living in the US to carry out terrorist actions against Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![Jet\_Jaguar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jet_jaguar/32/3562_2.png) [@Jet\_Jaguar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jet_Jaguar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/15 "2010-08-21T16:33:04Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Fear Itself** : That’s interesting. When Viktor Belenko defected from the USSR with his MiG-25, we eventually returned the craft in thirty crates. Of course, he defected in 1976, so perhaps we were a bit more willing to play somewhat nicer with the Reds by that point. IIRC, the MiG-15 wasn’t returned because the US offered to return the MiG to the Soviets, not to North Korea. The Russians declined because accepting it could be viewed as admitting to direct Soviet involvement in Korea, which was something they were denying at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/16 "2010-08-21T18:21:26Z")
You should probably also take into account the “expiration date” of whichever crime you comitted. The US and North Korea _currently_ don’t have an extradition treaty. In 20 years, though, that might have changed - but your murder charge will still be on the book. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/17 "2010-08-21T19:09:41Z")
Don’t current US terror laws enable you to be prosecuted in the US for acts of terrorism carried out overseas ? That Iranian power plant bombing would definitely be covered by that. Not that the US has a [particularly good record](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/20/world/americas/20posada.html) when it comes to prosecuting people who carry acts of terror against the their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![\_cc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/e19b73/32.png) [@\_cc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_cc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/18 "2010-08-30T19:07:14Z")
I would be just a little bit nervous, all things considered. [North Korean abductions of Japanese](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese) [North Korean abductions of South Koreans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_South_Koreans) [Megumi Yokota](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megumi_Yokota) ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-i-stole-something-from-north-korea/550803/19 "2010-08-30T20:08:09Z")
Chilling stuff, **[cc]**. Thanks for sharing the links.