What if: Jesus presents himself as a mere prophet.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@lance_strongarm

I wasn’t defending Jesus’ claims, just C.S. Lewis’ logical conclusions about them.

Well, yes, but just like Steve MB in effect tacked ‘or Misquoted’ on to the end of the ‘Liar or Lord or Lunatic’ conclusion, I likewise wanted to argue that one could just as easily add on, uh, ‘or relayed a claim he (a) honestly believed, and (b) had reason to think was true; he may have been incorrect, without it being lunacy or a lie, since one of his contemporaries apparently reached the same reasonable conclusion given what we now see as insufficient evidence’.

[Steve_MB]

@lance_strongarm

Good point. Yes, that’s true, but it’s not quite the theological debate Lewis was concerned with. I don’t know if many people say “Jesus was a great moral teacher and insane person who thought he was the son of God.” But maybe.

Most people who regard Jesus as a great but fully human teacher either downplay the claim to divinity or believe that it was added after the fact by his followers. If pressed, people who concede that Jesus claimed to be divine but don’t believe it themselves pretty much have to conclude “yeah, he was deluded about that part, but it doesn’t affect the valid points in the message”.

[lance_strongarm]

@Steve_MB

“yeah, he was deluded about that part, but it doesn’t affect the valid points in the message”.

I wonder if that’s not a reasonable thing to say though.

I’m undecided at this moment.

[Trinopus]

@lance_strongarm

I disagree. He was merely saying that, when asked, Jesus left no middle ground. He said under no uncertain terms that he’s the son of God, etc., so either he was, or he was crazy/evil.

The trouble is that C.S. Lewis himself was leaving no middle ground. He went beyond what you say; he exceeded his logically defensible position.

He said, for instance, that we, studying the history of the era, may not say that “Jesus was a wise teacher.” He didn’t say “Jesus would have denied being a wise teacher.” He said thatwe may not recognize Jesus as a wise teacher.

As others have noted: there are plenty of further alternatives, and Lewis excluded them without proper acknowledgement. “The Chargers are either Super-Bowl Champions, or they aren’t a football team at all.”

(Hm… Okay, bad example…)

[lance_strongarm]

@Trinopus

He said, for instance, that we, studying the history of the era, may not say that “Jesus was a wise teacher.” He didn’t say “Jesus would have denied being a wise teacher.” He said thatwe may not recognize Jesus as a wise teacher.

I don’t see how those are any different.

[Trinopus]

Because Jesus may actually have been a wise teacher.

Lewis is setting himself up as the judge, not letting Jesus (or history) be the judge.

[monavis]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

There’s an interesting little moment in John 10 where a crowd bent on stoning Jesus (a) stops to readily admit that Jesus has of course done many good works, but (b) explains that claiming to be God equals blasphemy equals capital offense.

This of course fits with Jesus replying “I am” in Mark 14, and cue the what further need have we of witnesses insta-condemnation to death.

“I and my Father are one,” he says. Or, as C S Lewis famously put it,

So . . . how would the alternative play out?

What happens if Lazarus gets resurrected like various minor characters in the story of Elijah and Elisha, and ditto for multiplying loaves, and curing leprosy and blindness, and prophesying the future, and et cetera, and, well, cue the message delivered from on high, but with nary a word about being God or the Son of God or both or whatever; imagine he pretty much just talks like an Old Testament prophet, and maybe acts like Superman, but without ever mentioning – or even hinting at – the elephant in the room?

(Note: yes, I know this is the SDMB. No need to tell me the whole thing is fiction; just answer as if I’d asked a what-if about some work of fiction.)

In John 10 Jesus also is quoted as saying;" It says in your (notice Your law not God’s) Referring to Psalm 81 in RC version, 82 in K J V, “I said you are gods and sons of god”. He asks them why they say he blaspheme’s because he calls God his father when their father’s did.

It is a matter of translation. sounds to me like he wasn’t thinking he was anymore god then the people he was addressing!

[monavis]

@UDS

There was certainly enormous controversy within Christianity over exactly who Jesus was, and what was the relationship between Jesus and the Father, but I think it’s a false dichotomoy to suggest that the choice was between “son of God” in anything like the now-orthodox trinitarian understanding on the one hand, and “just a wise prophet who performed miracles” on the other.

In fact, if there was anyone in the Christian movement who believed the latter, I think they were pretty marginal.

Whether or not you accept the historicity of the resurrection, it’s undoubtedly the case that the resurrection was something Christians believed from very early on, and their understanding of who Jesus was and how he was related to the Father was probably shaped by that at least as much as by any interpretation of what he was remembered as having said about himself. (Remember, the resurrection was a current belief before any of the four gospels were even written.) So I think in approaching this question, even once they had the gospels, Christian thinkers weren’t trying to interpret Jesus’s statements about himself as recorded in the gospels; they were trying to understand what the resurrection told us about Jesus, in the light of what Jesus was recorded in the gospels as having said about himself. There isn’t much room there for “just a prophet”.

Isn’t it strange that the women close to Jesus came to anoint a dead man, even though Jesus is said to say many times he would resurrect on the 3 day?

It also looks like the apostles didn’t expect a resurrection because they wouldn’t have been surprised when told he had resurrected

[monavis]

@lance_strongarm

I disagree. He was merely saying that, when asked, Jesus left no middle ground. He said under no uncertain terms that he’s the son of God, etc., so either he was, or he was crazy/evil.

He also spoke as if all were gods,just as the psalmist said. Not necessarily meaning he was different from the people to whom he spoke! He mention many times your father and taught them to pray OUR FATHER.

[watchwolf49]

Genesis 3:22 - “And the Lord GOD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.”

We are all gods, children of the One True God. It’s Islam that says there is only one God. That’s what the Holy Spirit is all about, that part of God that man can take up.

But I digress … Christ was prophised to come … the people of His day were actually waiting for him. Also, there were very very few people Christ’s age, most were slaughtered by what’s-his-name. Finally, Joseph was the 41st direct decendent of Abraham … every Jew knew EXACTLY who he was.

So it’s not just some bozo saying “I’m God” … He was expected and He was like royalty to the Jews.

[Stringbean]

@watchwolf49

So it’s not just some bozo saying “I’m God” … He was expected and He was like royalty to the Jews.

Crucifixion. Hell of a way to honor royalty.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@watchwolf49

Christ was prophised to come … the people of His day were actually waiting for him. Also, there were very very few people Christ’s age, most were slaughtered by what’s-his-name. Finally, Joseph was the 41st direct decendent of Abraham … every Jew knew EXACTLY who he was.

So it’s not just some bozo saying “I’m God” … He was expected and He was like royalty to the Jews.

But isn’t the idea that Jews were expecting someone who’d be as to Rome what Moses was to Egypt? A human, born of humans, who features prominently in miraculous tales of [del]parting the sea[/del] walking on water, and turning water into [del]blood[/del] wine, and who relays commands and prophecies from God without claiming to be God or the son of God or whatever?

[monavis]

@watchwolf49

Genesis 3:22 - “And the Lord GOD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.”

We are all gods, children of the One True God. It’s Islam that says there is only one God. That’s what the Holy Spirit is all about, that part of God that man can take up.

But I digress … Christ was prophised to come … the people of His day were actually waiting for him. Also, there were very very few people Christ’s age, most were slaughtered by what’s-his-name. Finally, Joseph was the 41st direct decendent of Abraham … every Jew knew EXACTLY who he was.

So it’s not just some bozo saying “I’m God” … He was expected and He was like royalty to the Jews.

If what I heard a Rabbi say is true, the Jewish people were not looking for a Messiah as Jesus was said to be. There was a Messiah named Simon in 400 B C, who also said the Messiah should die for the people, but the Jewish people never accepted him either .