# What if? Jutland **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378 "2015-01-30T23:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/1 "2015-01-30T23:00:01Z")
OK, the German High Seas Fleet delivered a nasty tactical victory over the Grand Fleet in 1916. The Germans sank three of the much vaunted Battlecruisers. The British shells werent exploding but their magazines were. "_there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today."_ The only High Seas Fleet ship in trouble was the Lützow, which sank much later. Despite this, Sheer ordered a _Gefechtskehrtwendung_ (“battle about turn”) and retreated. The Grand Fllet was known to be inferior in Night fighting. What would have happened if Sheer had persisted? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/2 "2015-01-31T00:55:02Z")
Many more casualties on both sides. The British probably would have got their act together, weathered whatever loses they took and sent the Germans running for port after more losses. The British were only going to yield if they were completely crushed. Sheer fled before he needed to, but they were badly outnumbered by superior crews and he would have faced a pasting eventually. The British would have been willing to take horrifying casualties and the Germans knew it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/3 "2015-01-31T01:36:43Z")
Answered in one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/4 "2015-01-31T03:58:41Z")
The German open sea Navy was a hair up the ass idea of Kaiser Willy. They were never going to match the Brits, and the Germans knew it. Had they lost half the fleet, suicide would have been expected and the German Navy wasn’t into losing half the men. They were required to sortie forth to show that they weren’t a huge waste of money, which they were. They did. Consider the Bismark in WWII. A vastly superior ship. If they had waited and sent out the Tirpitz with her, and a couple of pocket battle ships, they could have sunk every ship in the Royal Navy limited only by on board ammunition. Consider that when the Bismark was sent out, a lucky hit crippled her and she still nearly made it back to port. With the Tirpitz supporting her, she would have, but she wasn’t available. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/5 "2015-01-31T04:06:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What would have happened if Sheer had persisted? Heavier casualties, possible loss of most of the remaining German dreadnoughts (they still were outnumbered by the British better than 2:1 by battle’s end). I think it’s Scheer, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/6 "2015-01-31T05:36:46Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Many more casualties on both sides. The British probably would have got their act together, weathered whatever loses they took and sent the Germans running for port after more losses. The British were only going to yield if they were completely crushed. Sheer fled before he needed to, but they were badly outnumbered by superior crews and he would have faced a pasting eventually. The British would have been willing to take horrifying casualties and the Germans knew it. Agreed, except for the last one. The British Grand Fleet could not realistically take very heavy casualties, without jeopardizing its main mission of blockading Germany. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/7 "2015-01-31T05:40:51Z")
Without the German fleet, or the German fleet badly damaged, the blockade would have been just as effective with fewer ships. The British kept so much of their force in the UK because of the threat posed by the German fleet as it was comprised. But both those fleets in half, and the British lose a lot more men and materiel, but they then have a much bigger advantage over the German fleet and can summon more ships from the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/8 "2015-01-31T22:29:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Agreed, except for the last one. The British Grand Fleet could not realistically take very heavy casualties, without jeopardizing its main mission of blockading Germany. Massies ‘Castles of Steel’ looks at this. I don’t have a copy to hand. But from memory betweeen British ships refitting/new build/could be brought home, they could have made good to at least parity/still outnumbering unless they took very heavy losses indeed. Plus the half a dozen French dreadnoughts could have abandoned the Med (where frankly they weren’t doing much) and reinforced the Grand Fleet. It is worth repeating that this is a very unlikely scenario. At the start of the engagement the British dreadnoughts were crossing the German ‘T’. It took about 3 minutes for Scheer to decide the situation was hopeless and his only chance to save his fleet was a risky high speed 180 (Which they had actually practised) and to run like hell. After which his only thought and maneuver was towards breaking contact and escaping home. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/9 "2015-02-01T22:36:14Z")
pretty much all you need to know: > [@](#): > > By **18:30** , the main battle fleet action was joined for the first time, with Jellicoe effectively “crossing Scheer’s T”. The officers on the lead German battleships, and Scheer himself, were taken completely by surprise when they emerged from drifting clouds of smoky mist to suddenly find themselves facing the massed firepower of the entire Grand Fleet main battle line, which they did not know was even at sea.[73] Jellicoe’s flagship Iron Duke quickly scored seven hits on the lead German dreadnought, SMS König,[74] but in this brief exchange, which lasted only minutes, as few as 10 of the Grand Fleet’s 24 dreadnoughts actually opened fire. The Germans were hampered by poor visibility, in addition to being in an unfavourable tactical position, just as Jellicoe had intended. Realising he was heading into a death trap, Scheer ordered his fleet to turn and flee at **18:33**. Under a pall of smoke and mist, Scheer’s forces succeeded in disengaging by an expertly executed 180° turn in unison (“battle about turn to starboard”), which was a well-practised emergency manoeuvre of the High Seas Fleet > **[Battle of Jutland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jutland)** > > The Battle of Jutland (German: Skagerrakschlacht, lit. 'Battle of the Skagerrak') was a naval battle between Britain's Royal Navy Grand Fleet, under Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, and the Imperial German Navy's High Seas Fleet, under Vice-Admiral Reinhard Scheer, during World War I. The battle unfolded in extensive manoeuvring and three main engagements from 31 May to 1 June 1916, off the North Sea coast of Denmark's Jutland Peninsula. It was the largest naval battle and only full-scale clash of b... British losses were in the duck and dive preamble. Once the beasts turned up … ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-jutland/711378/10 "2015-02-02T17:42:49Z")
Both sides lost some smaller ships as well (if you can call armored cruisers “smaller.”) But like the armored cruisers, the battlecruisers were essentially superfluous once the battle lines had made contact – had Britain lost the entire lot of them, it would not have determined the outcome. And the battleships proper were much more durable. Super-Dreadnought HMS \*Warspite \* reeled out of the line of battle, was hit multiple times by heavy shells (my memory of Keegan is 22 times, Wikipedia says “at least 15”), but continued on with the fleet. Upon arriving home in port, her captain reported her able to sortie again on four hours’ notice. And in the actual event, the Germans had their “T” crossed in BOTH encounters. Scheer tried gamely to calculate the right moment to turn around and re-engage his foes, but guessed wrong in the darkness and confusion. The smaller, less-experienced force twice getting caught at the position of maximum disadvantage is ill-advised to press on. The High Seas Fleet faced imminent destruction had it done so. They would have been better served by retiring to lick their wounds and try again another day. Why they never tried again is, in my mind, a more revealing question.