# What if Karl Marx had died in June 1844? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065 "2009-06-08T03:09:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065/21 "2009-06-09T14:17:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, but Marx took the idealism out of Hegelianism and put materialism in its place. Instead of ideas being the motive force of history, as Hegel asserted, Marx posited the actions of humanity and the organization of society into mutually conflicting classes. While extensive critical study and research, as well as practical involvement in the movements and questions of the day, aren’t a complete guarantee against pseudo-scientific thought, it’s a damn good defense against it. I disagree. Marx was not a scientist. He did not make impartial observations and apply the scientific method to derive his theories. He essentially just made it up and then used scientific jargon to make it superficially sound like his philosophy was a science. Marxism is about as scientific as creationism or dianetics. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065/22 "2009-06-09T14:23:08Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > His general point, that being the political and social effects of the disconnect between the laborers and the owners of the means of production, has been a central pillar in the history of humanity. Consequently, someone else would’ve pointed out its existence and a theoretical outcome of such a disconnect in the age of industrialization and nascent democracy if he wasn’t around. This. Whether or not Marx existed WW1 would have happened and the Russian Tsar and the brutally oppressive system he led would be unchanged and just as intransigent. And people would have found another motivating ideology. Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky would have been the same bastards. Marx and Marxism was an effect of industrialisation. If not Marxism some other ideology would have filled the niche. And that niche, because of the history of Russia would be filled by something as ruthless and violent. Look at Nazism in Germany. In fact Communism was probably a ‘good’ as in ‘least awful’ option for the long term good of the world. Imagine WW2 with Russia, Germany, Italy and Japan all on the same side. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065/23 "2009-06-09T14:49:16Z")
This seems like one of those questions that no one can really answer. Just like “If Hitler had been killed by a bolt of lightning in 1919 would Nazi-ism have arisen in Germany?” or “If Napoleon had died at the siege of Toulon, would his wars have happened?” I take the view that someone similar would have replaced the person we know of, and some details would be different, but overall the history would be similar for one man’s absence. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065/24 "2009-06-10T06:19:26Z")
The book “Downtiming the Nightside” has this as a scenerio ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065/25 "2009-06-10T18:34:32Z")
**Dorothea** , I’m planning to get back to your point about class consciousness in a little more depth, but wanted to take a moment to say that John Bellamy Foster’s [Marx’s Ecology](http://www.amazon.com/Marxs-Ecology-John-Bellamy-Foster/dp/1583670122/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244658767&sr=8-1) is an excellent counter-argument to your assertion that Marx didn’t anticipate “green” thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065/26 "2009-06-10T20:56:58Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > **Dorothea** , I’m planning to get back to your point about class consciousness in a little more depth, but wanted to take a moment to say that John Bellamy Foster’s [Marx’s Ecology](http://www.amazon.com/Marxs-Ecology-John-Bellamy-Foster/dp/1583670122/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244658767&sr=8-1) is an excellent counter-argument to your assertion that Marx didn’t anticipate “green” thinking. Okay **Olentzero** , thank you for the tip. I tend to appear and disappear depending on how much time I can sneak away from work at this time of year; but if I am still reading I will look out for your remarks on class consciousness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-karl-marx-had-died-in-june-1844/499065.md?page=1)