# What if native Americans weren't so nice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706 "2018-01-15T18:06:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/81 "2018-01-23T14:04:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And natives in what’s new the US/Canada did have organized agriculture, By “organized”, I took it to mean quasi-state-run agriculture that generated big surpluses and allowed for crafter specialization and urbanization. US/Canada hadn’t had that since the big decline of the Mississippian Culture with the abandonment of Cahokia, Spiro etc., which was all pre-1492, AFAIK. I’m aware of the extent of pre-Columbian agricultural practice. ETA: Ninjaed, I see 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/82 "2018-01-24T03:35:21Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > c. Didn’t have manufacturing Can you point out large scale European manufacturing previous to the Industrial Revolution, which was much later? Or are you referencing the guild system, or the domestic system? Those were still mostly skilled individual artisans as concepts like interchangeable parts wouldn’t exist until post 1798. Artisans who produced goods as part of their livelihood, merchants who exchanged and moved a wide range of goods and trade and distribution networks all existed in several forms in the Pre-Colombian world. An example cite [http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2110.full](http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2110.full) There was also a large and active trade in malachite, agate, vegetables, and baskets, and imported shells and salt from the coasts. They even had an analog to the pony express!! In fact outside of the Mojave Road most of these historical trade routes are some of the largest and most traveled interstate highways and modern trade routes today. Obviously not winning the usable draft animal lottery effected the scale here, but here is some information on how wide the trade was in the PNW. > **[::: American Indians of the Pacific Northwest Collection :::](https://content.lib.washington.edu/aipnw/miller1.html#trade)** > > An award-winning site on Pacific Northwest Native Americans from the University of Washington Libraries, featuring essays for K-12, historic images, treaties, maps, and Indian Agent reports. Or consider in the Inland North West where the one group of people was given the name Cœur d’Alène, meaning “heart of an awl.” referring to their shrewdness in trading skills. How would they have gained these skills without a robust amount of existing trade and (for a lack of a better term) industry? I don’t know if discounting this compared to European manufacturing, which previous to 1700 was typically done in people’s homes, using hand tools or simple machines too. Even if you consider stone tools, remember that usable flint needed to be sourced: > [@](#): > > Indians of the southern and northern Plains traded with each other for thousands of years. Flint points 13,000 years old, chiseled from the Texas quarries, have been found in eastern New Mexico. Quarried stone from the Obsidian Cliffs near Mammoth Hot Springs, Wyo. in Yellowstone Park, traveled to the the Ohio River Valley around 100-350 CE. That quote source and more information can be found here. [Trade Among Tribes: Commerce on the Plains before Europeans Arrived | WyoHistory.org](https://www.wyohistory.org/encyclopedia/trade-among-tribes-commerce-plains-europeans-arrived) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/83 "2018-01-24T09:24:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I think a better answer to the question is what if the native americans had not given up and agreed to move onto reservations? > > What if they instead tried a long lasting guerilla campaign similar to say how the Irish did in northern Ireland with bombings and such? > > Well the answer is they would have been totally wiped out. The US government of the 1870’s would have had no tolerance for such things. Pretty much. Ask Geronimo (or better yet, read his memoirs - they’re public domain now and a fascinating look from the “other side” ; even though you can tell his editor/interviewer injected a lot of his own prejudices into the work). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/84 "2018-01-24T22:52:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Can you point out large scale European manufacturing previous to the Industrial Revolution, which was much later? Perhaps the Roman use of complex watermill powered workshops for wood & metalworking was being references. This may not count. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/85 "2018-01-28T01:20:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Pretty much. Ask Geronimo (or better yet, read his memoirs - they’re public domain now and a fascinating look from the “other side” ; even though you can tell his editor/interviewer injected a lot of his own prejudices into the work). Although his people were able to take the U.S. to court and regain some of their lands back, with some small success. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/86 "2018-01-31T19:38:50Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I would appreciate some cites. Not because I disagree with this, but because I agree with it, and want to read more on the subject. I didn’t see this answered. The eye-opening book on this topic for me was Charles Mann’s _[1491](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus)_. There’s a follow-up called, appropriately enough, _[1493](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1493:_Uncovering_the_New_World_Columbus_Created)_. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706/87 "2018-01-31T20:12:38Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Personally, I feel the Incas had a better shot. Their core territory was exceptionally defensible and less ideal for the spread of diseases, they were a large united polity with few enemies able to contest their power, and they were still a young setup figuring out how to do things as an empire. Flexible. > > The conquistadors really lucked out there, with good help from the epidemics. They’d already figured out how to do some things quite well, starting with the most basic function of a state, keeping people fed. Spanish observers at the time thought that the Inca’s subjects looked healthier, better nourished and in general in better physical condition than the average Spaniard. That ended with the epidemics, to put it mildly. I think it’s true that highland South America was less well set up for the spread of diseases than the tropical regions, which is part of why Peru/Ecuador/Bolivia have more indigenous people today, and a greater genetic component in the modern population, than most other parts of the Americas. Still, it wasn’t till around 1965 or so that the population of Peru equalled it precolonial level. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-native-americans-werent-so-nice/806706.md?page=4)