What if native Americans weren't so nice

By “organized”, I took it to mean quasi-state-run agriculture that generated big surpluses and allowed for crafter specialization and urbanization.

US/Canada hadn’t had that since the big decline of the Mississippian Culture with the abandonment of Cahokia, Spiro etc., which was all pre-1492, AFAIK. I’m aware of the extent of pre-Columbian agricultural practice.

ETA: Ninjaed, I see :slight_smile:

Can you point out large scale European manufacturing previous to the Industrial Revolution, which was much later?

Or are you referencing the guild system, or the domestic system? Those were still mostly skilled individual artisans as concepts like interchangeable parts wouldn’t exist until post 1798.

Artisans who produced goods as part of their livelihood, merchants who exchanged and moved a wide range of goods and trade and distribution networks all existed in several forms in the Pre-Colombian world.

An example cite http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2110.full

There was also a large and active trade in malachite, agate, vegetables, and baskets, and imported shells and salt from the coasts. They even had an analog to the pony express!!

In fact outside of the Mojave Road most of these historical trade routes are some of the largest and most traveled interstate highways and modern trade routes today.

Obviously not winning the usable draft animal lottery effected the scale here, but here is some information on how wide the trade was in the PNW.

Or consider in the Inland North West where the one group of people was given the name Cœur d’Alène, meaning “heart of an awl.” referring to their shrewdness in trading skills. How would they have gained these skills without a robust amount of existing trade and (for a lack of a better term) industry?

I don’t know if discounting this compared to European manufacturing, which previous to 1700 was typically done in people’s homes, using hand tools or simple machines too.

Even if you consider stone tools, remember that usable flint needed to be sourced:

That quote source and more information can be found here. Trade Among Tribes: Commerce on the Plains before Europeans Arrived | WyoHistory.org

Pretty much. Ask Geronimo (or better yet, read his memoirs - they’re public domain now and a fascinating look from the “other side” ; even though you can tell his editor/interviewer injected a lot of his own prejudices into the work).

Perhaps the Roman use of complex watermill powered workshops for wood & metalworking was being references.

This may not count.

Although his people were able to take the U.S. to court and regain some of their lands back, with some small success.

I didn’t see this answered. The eye-opening book on this topic for me was Charles Mann’s 1491. There’s a follow-up called, appropriately enough, 1493.

They’d already figured out how to do some things quite well, starting with the most basic function of a state, keeping people fed. Spanish observers at the time thought that the Inca’s subjects looked healthier, better nourished and in general in better physical condition than the average Spaniard.

That ended with the epidemics, to put it mildly.

I think it’s true that highland South America was less well set up for the spread of diseases than the tropical regions, which is part of why Peru/Ecuador/Bolivia have more indigenous people today, and a greater genetic component in the modern population, than most other parts of the Americas. Still, it wasn’t till around 1965 or so that the population of Peru equalled it precolonial level.