# What if: Nazi Germany invaded Great Britain. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044 "2012-08-01T10:42:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/21 "2012-08-02T03:33:39Z")
[_It Happened Here_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Happened_Here) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/22 "2012-08-02T03:49:04Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Yeah, there were a bunch of embaressing training exercises where the Home Guard (made up of men supposedly to old or lame to fight) defeated regular British Army soldiers. I’d love to read about that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/23 "2012-08-02T03:52:43Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > In the USSR, the Luftwaffe did a “reasonable” job of resupply to Stalingrad. The managed about 350 tonnes a day which is no where near what was required. However, that was coming from depots set up by the Germans inside the USSR to a clear drop off point- they had landing points in Stalingrad. While the Soviets threw a lot of air defences and anti aircraft guns at the transports the Germans still had control of the air. > > In an invasion of Britain, there was no control of the air, in France there were no supply depots immediately available and really no drop zone established. You’ve got too high of a figure for Stalingrad; from wiki > [@](#): > > The Luftwaffe failed to achieve even the daily supply of 117 short tons (106 t) that it had aircraft for. An average of 94 short tons (85 t) of supplies per day was delivered. The most successful day, 19 December, delivered only 289 short tons (262 t) of supplies in 154 flights. Even to get to that meager figure they were using He-111 bombers and stripped the Luftwaffe training schools of both [planes and pilots](http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/milimprov/ch07.htm) > [@](#): > > Losses in men and materiel were replaced by crews and aircraft from the training commands, so that virtually all training of bomber crews came to a standstill during the winter of 1942-43. By the following spring the Stalingrad airlift accounted for the loss of 240 training crews and 365 training aircraft. The training program did not recover from the effects of these losses until 1944. There was simply no way for the Germans to supply an invasion force from the air, even in the most ideal conditions. A June invasion filled with even more problems than a September invasion. With no Battle of Britain Fighter Command is at full strength while the Luftwaffe would be operating from recently captured airbases in France with planes and crews badly in need of refit from the Fall of France. Transports or the complete lack thereof would also be a major problem as they wouldn’t even have the flimsy Rhine ferries available that Sea Lion was going to rely on in place in June. The Rhine ferries than would founder and sink in anything above sea state 2 and would need 30 hours to cross the channel **one way** and for which there weren’t even enough proper crews for even with the most extreme expedients. Again from the essay I linked to earlier which is a very good read on the matter: > [@](#): > > The situation with regard to mariners for the barges with experience of the sea was even worse. When used as a landing craft, the barges, tugs and motorboats required extra crew. In total, the Kriegsmarine estimated that a minimum of 20,000 extra crew would be needed. That’s 20,000 extra crew at least knowledgable of matters maritime. By stripping its ships to the minimum (which doesn’t bode well for the Kriegsmarine if it is required to fight a fleet action), the Kriegsmarine was able to supply 4,000 men. The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe transferred 3,000 men who had been sailors in civilian life, and an in-depth trawl of the reserves and the factories and the drafts brought forward another 9,000 men. After digging through the entire manpower cupboard, the barges were still 4,000 men short of the minimum required. > > Nothing could alter this, and the Kriegsmarine came to the reluctant conclusion that the barges would have to sail in an undermanned condition. > > Finally, the barges were under-powered for open water operations, and required towing. The basic unit was a tug towing two barges, and travelling at 2-3 knots, in the Channel, which has tides of 5 knots. Given that the distance that the far left of the invasion had to cross, a minimum of 85 miles, the poor bloody soldiers would be wallowing for a minimum of 30 hours in an open boat, and expected to carry out an opposed amphibious landing at the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/24 "2012-08-02T08:36:27Z")
I forget where I read it, but a historian once said that Sealion would not have worked, for various reasons stated above. Indeed, the invasion was counterproductive; but declaring his intention to invade and conquer Britain, Hitler gave the British a spark to cling to in defiance - Britain became the sole defier of the Nazis, boosting morale. If the Germans had simply declared they had no intention of conquering Britain but would simply wait for Britain to come to terms, I think British morale would have sunk; rather than being the focus of the free world in 1940-1, it would have been seen as daft, and incapable of facing facts. I think Churchill’s standing would have been deeply undermined, and perhaps the British would have come to terms shortly before the USSR was invaded. ---
**Author:** ![glaeken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@glaeken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glaeken)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/25 "2012-08-02T08:47:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Yeah, there were a bunch of embaressing training exercises where the Home Guard (made up of men supposedly to old or lame to fight) defeated regular British Army soldiers. That would not surprise me as I would imagine the Home Guard had a lot of WW1 veterans. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/26 "2012-08-02T20:34:11Z")
> [@glaeken](#): > > That would not surprise me as I would imagine the Home Guard had a lot of WW1 veterans. With scores to settle. (shudder) ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/27 "2012-08-03T01:07:59Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > We would have fought on the beaches, we would have fought on the landing grounds, we would have fought in the fields and in the streets, we would have fought in the hills; we would have never surrendered. If you’re fighting Germans on the landing grounds, and then in the fields and the streets and the hills, it sounds like they’re doing a good job of pushing out of their beachheads. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/28 "2012-08-03T01:33:20Z")
“…our colonies will carry on…” Maybe Churchill was already considering building up reserves in Canada or India and, using their strong navy, counter-invade. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/29 "2012-08-03T01:54:08Z")
It’s all well and good to talk about the bravery and high morale of the people who would have been fighting in Britain. But there were a lot of countries that had brave people fighting for them and the Germans occupied all those countries. Bravery’s great but it doesn’t make you bullet-proof. British army strength was at its low point in late 1940 - its pre-war strength had been lost in Norway and France and it hadn’t built up its wartime strength yet. German army strength was at its peak in late 1940 - it had beaten France and hadn’t started fighting the Soviets yet. If the German army had met the British army in Britain in 1940, it would have been a German victory. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/30 "2012-08-03T01:59:30Z")
So, you’re ignoring all the above posts or didn’t you read them? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/31 "2012-08-03T02:02:48Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > If you’re fighting Germans on the landing grounds, and then in the fields and the streets and the hills, it sounds like they’re doing a good job of pushing out of their beachheads. … and somewhere over Britain, the Luftwaffe goes whooshing over… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/32 "2012-08-03T02:24:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If the German army had met the British army in Britain in 1940, it would have been a German victory. “I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea.” -John Jervis, First Earl of St. Vincent. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/33 "2012-08-03T02:34:51Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > “I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I say only they will not come by sea.” > > -John Jervis, First Earl of St. Vincent. After the semi-fiasco of Crete, you can add “air” to that list as well. ETA which isn’t to say that the Germans would not have tried to incorporate airborne into an invasion, just that it wouldn’t have worked out very well (to put it mildly.) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/34 "2012-08-03T02:48:57Z")
if you’re going to do this alternate history you have to go back and make a supposed bunch of earlier changes: a) the bulk of the UK BEF 330,000 men is captured at Dunkirk. Lets say the RAF and Royal Navy also take heavy losses trying to defend the evacuating ships. b) Germany wins the battle of britain, perhaps by knocking out the chain radar system power and infrastructure early on and then successfully destroying enough airfields in the south of Britain to make the RAF ineffective. c) the Luftwaffe having achieved air superiority then figures out successful tactics against moving ships and manages to keep the Navy out of key channel areas. then you can talk about an invasion. But if all of these had happened, the UK would have negotiated peace before the invasion anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/35 "2012-08-03T03:17:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > British army strength was at its low point in late 1940 - its pre-war strength had been lost in Norway and France and it hadn’t built up its wartime strength yet. German army strength was at its peak in late 1940 - it had beaten France and hadn’t started fighting the Soviets yet. If the German army had met the British army in Britain in 1940, it would have been a German victory. It’s like you didn’t read any of this thread. The OP specifically links to the order of battle planned for Operation Sea Lion - not the entire Heer. The Sea Lion forces simply would not have gotten the job done; they were a small fraction of Germany’s fighting force, and to be honest they weren’t the RIGHT fraction if the Nazis wanted any chance of victory. They would have been in a helpless situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/36 "2012-08-03T04:40:00Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > if you’re going to do this alternate history you have to go back and make a supposed bunch of earlier changes: > > a) the bulk of the UK BEF 330,000 men is captured at Dunkirk. Lets say the RAF and Royal Navy also take heavy losses trying to defend the evacuating ships. > b) Germany wins the battle of britain, perhaps by knocking out the chain radar system power and infrastructure early on and then successfully destroying enough airfields in the south of Britain to make the RAF ineffective. > c) the Luftwaffe having achieved air superiority then figures out successful tactics against moving ships and manages to keep the Navy out of key channel areas. > > then you can talk about an invasion. > > But if all of these had happened, the UK would have negotiated peace before the invasion anyway. I’d say you’d have to add a couple more: d) No German attack on Russia e) No Japanese attack on the USA and especially f) No German declaration of war on the USA and even more especially g) The Germans took invading Britain seriously instead of the slapdash plan they actually came up with, which mostly consisted of doodles of ME-109s shooting at cartoon Englishmen. If, as per OP, the Germans were able to land in 1940 due to the entire Royal Navy taking an ill-timed vacation in Jamaica and then misplacing their keys, we’re talking about a huge empire, not just the UK (this despite the “Britain stands alone” line). Churchill would’ve hauled stakes for Canada or Australia or somewhere else and kept fighting, IMO. I doubt that Churchill would have negotiated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/37 "2012-08-03T04:49:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s like you didn’t read any of this thread. No, it’s more like I know what I’m talking about. The BEF had left all its artillery and all its vehicles behind in France when it evacuated. The 1st Canadian Infantry was the only fully equipped division in Britain in July 1940 (because there hadn’t been time to send it on to France). All of the other units existed mostly on paper - they had soldiers and they had rifles. But riflemen can’t stop tanks and artillery. The German plans for Operation Seelowe were to land thirteen divisions in the first wave of the attack. With fourteen more divisions (plus a number of independent regiments) in the immediate follow-up. The Germans would have had an overwhelming superiority of forces on the ground just from what they landed in the initial attack. To put things in perspective, Poland, Belgium, Norway, and the Netherlands all had more ready troops than Britain had in July. Two things saved Britain: The Germans wasted way too much time and weren’t prepared to invade when the British Army was at its weakest. And the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force made it impossible for the Germans to get their troops across the Channel. But the OP said to ignore those two factors and assume they made the landing. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/38 "2012-08-03T05:32:10Z")
^ Neither read nor know. The question is when? We all know that in June 1940, the British had at best 3 divisions. But by September, it was a different story. Do you think your 14 German divisions, with their backs at the channel, can defeat 16 heavily armed British divisions (with spanking new weapons at that?) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/39 "2012-08-03T06:15:07Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > ^ > Neither read nor know. The question is when? We all know that in June 1940, the British had at best 3 divisions. But by September, it was a different story. Do you think your 14 German divisions, with their backs at the channel, can defeat 16 heavily armed British divisions (with spanking new weapons at that?) The OP didn’t specify a particular time. So I picked a month when it would have been their best opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044/40 "2012-08-03T06:23:58Z")
Right you are. But it seems people here are still assuming the original schedule of Seelowe which was roundabout September. The funny thing with industrialized countries back then was, well, they were highly populous and industrialized. Britain, I think, best exemplified this. Even if you invaded right after Dunkirk, you’ll pay for every mile you gain. British factories beyond the reach of the luftwaffe will crank out weapons round the clock and the 320,000 escapees from Dunkirk would have swelled to half a million. That’s probably the number you’ll be facing when you get to the London Area. My best analogy for the above was Stalingrad. Factories there were cranking out new T-34s even as the Germans were knocking at their doors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-nazi-germany-invaded-great-britain/630044.md?page=3)