# What If New Brunswick Decided to Join The USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783 "2012-05-13T17:13:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/141 "2012-06-02T13:50:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What?! The geography is practically identical! Canada is the same size as the United States … 1. No, Canada’s geography is fundamentally different from the US, because of the Canadian Shield, which blocked easy access to the North-West. Unlike the situation in US settlement where settlers could gradually move westward on their own, the only effective way to get through the Shield was by railway. Building the railway through the Shield required a strong central government and a major corporation, the Canadian Pacific, chartered by the federal government. It was only once those requirements were met that there was easy access to the North-west for settlement. Some political theorists argue that this difference in settlement patterns helped make Canadians more statist and open to a larger role for governments than Americans, because the country literally would not have existed but for a large interventionist federal government. 2. Canada is larger than the US, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/142 "2012-06-02T14:47:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What?! The geography is practically identical! Canada is the same size as the U.S., it has plains, mountains, forests, seacoasts, just like the U.S. – it even has deserts if you count the tundra; the only important difference is climate, which is the sole reason why Canada is comparatively underpopulated. Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, South America – they all have plains, mountains, forests and seacoasts, so they are all practically identical. Well, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/143 "2012-06-02T15:28:24Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Given that there’s really nothing in northern Manitoba worth connecting to nothing in particular in north-Northern Ontario, does this matter? In the depth of winter, there is an ice road between [Shamattawa](http://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/winter/maps.html)in Northern Manitoba and [Fort Severn](http://www.mndm.gov.on.ca/northern_development/transportation_support/northern_ontario_winter_roads_e.asp)up in Ontario’s polar bear country. Northern Ontario and Northern Manitoba are mineral rich, so eventually there will be permanent roads. It’s a big issue here in Northern Ontario with respect to economic development and aboriginal control of land. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/144 "2012-06-02T15:50:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > IMO,. having an independent Canada is one of the most undervalued assets of the US. Americans save those with connections to overseas markets or resident in a few ‘multicultural’ metropolises tend to be very provincial, with “how we Americans think” contrasted with “how people overseas think.” Even Mexico has a significant linguistic/cultural split from who we are. But Canada is on our borders, speaks the same language by and large, has many of the same institutions, yet is manifestly different and does things differently than we (US) Americans. Want to know how a $1 coin done right and with the $1 bill pulled would work out in practice? They did it. Want to know the effects of national SSM? They did it. And they’re happy and patriotic being Canadians; they don’t want to be part of the country with Watergate, DOMA, Reaganomics, and the rejection, since the Reagan years, of 200 years of never starting a war in favor of some bizarre theory that our high moral standards justify aggression. Canada is the mirror we need to see what we miss noticing about ourselves. And **we** need it to be there for that reason. It seems to me that the reverse is what happens, though. We watch the US do something wrong, then ten years later we follow your example. Our PM, were he an American politician, would be a Bush Republican; were he in power 10 years ago, we’d have been in Iraq with you. One candidate for the premiership of Alberta was a conservative libertarian of the “we want to pretend there’s no need for environmental regulation of business so we’ll hire scientists who will tell us what we want to hear” flavour. Calgary has recently stopped fluoridating its water because some one scientifically illiterate libertarian complained about her lack of choice, but didn’t bother asking anyone else what they thought on the matter. Then the city turned down a free (free!) analysis of the results of fluoridation offered by experts in the matter, as well as refusing to put the matter to a plebiscite. One assumes they consulted a magic 8-ball on the matter. I will not be surprised to see Conservatives trying to rig elections by purging voter lists within the next five years. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/145 "2012-06-02T21:08:42Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > It seems to me that the reverse is what happens, though. We watch the US do something wrong, then ten years later we follow your example. Our PM, were he an American politician, would be a Bush Republican; were he in power 10 years ago, we’d have been in Iraq with you. But so would Michael Ignatieff, a strong supporter of the Iraq War. Would Michael Ignatieff be a Bush Republican? See, this is why you can’t match political connections along a one-dimensional axis. You can’t pull someone out of one country and plop them into another country’s politics; Stephen Harper’s personal history and political affiliation don’t have a match in American politics. If he were an American politician that means he would have been born in America, raised in America, and therefore have a completely different personal history and outlook on life. > [@](#): > > Calgary has recently stopped fluoridating its water because some one scientifically illiterate libertarian complained about her lack of choice, but didn’t bother asking anyone else what they thought on the matter. And, well, this is just a falsehood; Calgary stopped fluoridating its water supply because the city council voted 10-3 to do so. “One scientifically illiterate libertarian” did not have ten votes on city council. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/146 "2012-06-02T21:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Stephen Harper’s personal history and political affiliation don’t have a match in American politics. There are no right-wing evangelical Christians in American politics? Harper favours muzzling scientists and supports marginalizing homosexuals (he’s not getting his way, happily). And he would have had us invading Iraq as well were he in a position to do so at the time (I don’t think the fact that another Canadian politician would have as well contradicts my claim that Canada tends to watch the US move to the right then follow suit). If you plucked Harper out of Ottawa and dropped him in DC and asked “which party do you favour joining?” what do you think he’d say? More importantly, do you think I’m wrong? Do you think Canada hasn’t been following the US’s stumble to the right (I don’t think “lean” is strong enough language)? You think electing a right-wing evangelical homophobic anti-intellectual Conservative is _not_ indicative of our following the US’s lead? > [@](#): > > If he were an American politician that means he would have been born in America, raised in America, and therefore have a completely different personal history and outlook on life. You’re right. He’d probably be worse. And Calgary’s vote didn’t just come out of the blue like it was Fluoridation Review Time or something, it was sparked because of the complaints of people who claimed they weren’t given a choice. Then they have the unmitigated audacity to claim that this is a victory for people who “value choice”. If they valued choice, they would have insisted on a public referendum. And it’s certainly no falsehood that the city turned down the offer of expert opinion. We aren’t providing a good example for the US, the US is providing a bad example for us. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/147 "2012-06-02T22:04:42Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > There’s like, one road connecting Manitoba to the east. [Yeah, we know.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c3qH-8luNI)😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/148 "2012-06-02T22:57:27Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > It seems to me that the reverse is what happens, though. We watch the US do something wrong, then ten years later we follow your example. Same thing happened in Europe as a matter of fact. It’s ironic that so many people are pointing to the current crisis as the proof of the failure of the European economic model when the road toward shitdom started when much of Europe started copying the current American economic model (i.e. low taxes and high spending.) Although the Greeks certainly didn’t copy tax cheating from us. In fact, as far as tax policy goes, I haven’t heard of Canada emulating America, and that’s a good thing cause I also haven’t heard of Canada’s economic woes. Or maybe I just don’t pay enough attention. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/149 "2012-06-02T23:20:09Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > There’s like, one road connecting Manitoba to the east. At Nipigon, Ontario, there really is only one road that connects east and west: the Nipigon River Bridge. There are no other roads at all. I expect that eventually a road will be constructed on top of Lake Nipigon, but for now the Nipigon Bridge is the only road there is connecting the two halves of the country. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/150 "2012-06-02T23:45:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In the depth of winter, there is an ice road between [Shamattawa](http://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/winter/maps.html)in Northern Manitoba and [Fort Severn](http://www.mndm.gov.on.ca/northern_development/transportation_support/northern_ontario_winter_roads_e.asp)up in Ontario’s polar bear country. What is an “ice road”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/151 "2012-06-02T23:49:18Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In fact, as far as tax policy goes, I haven’t heard of Canada emulating America, and that’s a good thing cause I also haven’t heard of Canada’s economic woes. Or maybe I just don’t pay enough attention. We’re well on our way to having the same income inequality problems as the US. I’m not a money person, but as far as I can tell it’s for the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/152 "2012-06-03T00:28:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is an “ice road”? Just as it sounds, a road over a frozen lake. In the north, it’s often the only flat, clear surface that can bear weight. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/153 "2012-06-03T01:31:06Z")
I oppose this idea of NB joining the sacred Union; the thought of introducing gravy on fries in this country is blasphemy! Freedom Fries is what we call 'em here, Frosties! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/154 "2012-06-03T02:10:59Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > There are no right-wing evangelical Christians in American politics? There are many. But they were born in the United States and have American political values. It’s trivially easy to demonstrate Harper is dramatically different from a standard issue Republican (and you can do it the other way, too.) To use an obvious example, Harper, and his party, are big fans of the royal family and lionize Her Majesty and her brood. It’s absolutely inconceivable that a conservative Republican would ever, ever do anything like that. It’s completely beyond the pale for a Republican to show any sort of deference to a foreign potentate; “American Exceptionalism” and all that. But you go on to say… > [@](#): > > Harper favours muzzling scientists and supports marginalizing homosexuals Harper has been the Prime Minister for six years now and has done nothing to “marginalize homosexuals,” so it’s time to drop the silly “hidden agenda” nonsense. Really, when are we gonna see evidence of this alleged hatred of gays? 2013? Is it gonna be 2013 now? Jesus, I’m not even a Conservative and I’m sick of this hidden agenda stuff. Can we criticize the guy for things that are _real_? There’s more than enough to point at. By the standards of American politics, Stephen Harper, when it comes to matters concerning gays, is not just not a Republican; he’s middle to left in the Democratic party. Barack Obama just now decided to support gay marriage; Harper’s led a government for six years that has quietly accepted gay marriage as law. If a Republican politician tried Harper’s tactic on gay marriage he’d have been utterly crucified by his own party by now. No Republican saying “well, gay marriage is the law, that seems fine” would have a chance in hell of being nominated for significant political office. Look, you just can’t map politics this way, because not only do different issues have different levels of importance in the two countries, but some issues don’t even _exist_ in the two countries. Abortion is a major issue in American politics but no major party in Canada wants anything to do with the issue. Quebec separation has no comparison in American politics (well, it hasn’t since 1865, anyway.) Universal health insurance is a hot button, divisive issue in the USA; in Canada its existence is supported more or less unanimously. Harper, by American standards, is amazingly right wing on some issues, amazingly left wing on some issues, and on some issues there’s just no left/right analogy at all. If in fact he’d been born in the USA he either never would have become a successful politican because America has no mainstream political party that matches what Stephen Harper’s position is, or he simply wouldn’t have grown up to be the same person. If he’d been born in San Francisco maybe he would be a Democrat; if in Utah, a Republican. It’s all purely hypothetical, because, in fact, Stephen Harper was born in Canada. > [@](#): > > And Calgary’s vote didn’t just come out of the blue like it was Fluoridation Review Time or something, it was sparked because of the complaints of people who claimed they weren’t given a choice. Perhaps. What I do know, and found out with 15 seconds of research, was that it was not the doing of one guy, as you had claimed. Some degree of accuracy in one’s facts is important for a meaningful discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/155 "2012-06-03T02:29:27Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Just as it sounds, a road over a frozen lake. In the north, it’s often the only flat, clear surface that can bear weight. How do they make it? And, does it melt in summer? ---
**Author:** ![apollonia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@apollonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apollonia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/156 "2012-06-03T02:31:31Z")
Well, yes…it’s not like northern Canada is a frozen wasteland year-round. [Ice road basics.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_road) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/157 "2012-06-03T03:31:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is an “ice road”? Appolonia has it covered. Here’s a reality tv show about it: Ice Road Truckers on History Televison. This [linked episode](http://www.history.ca/video/default.aspx?releasePID=Q5WL78CugashaxKnwKe1sqV_hxeid_o5)includes footage of Alaska and North-eastern Manitoba. Camera crew vehicle became part of the show. [http://www.history.ca/video/default.aspx?releasePID=Q5WL78CugashaxKnwKe1sqV\_hxeid\_o5](http://www.history.ca/video/default.aspx?releasePID=Q5WL78CugashaxKnwKe1sqV_hxeid_o5) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/158 "2012-06-03T03:36:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s completely beyond the pale for a Republican to show any sort of deference to a foreign potentate; “American Exceptionalism” and all that. Look at his starry eyes and tell me this doesn’t look like [deference](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-otyA9WERD8I/TkaxgRqspII/AAAAAAAAAXA/w5_TotesLsw/s1600/bush-abdullah-holding-hands.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/159 "2012-06-03T03:57:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How do they make it? And, does it melt in summer? Don’t you know what a Zamboni is? 😉 In the winter, chop down trees and fill in depressions on land. Upon reaching frozen muskeg or ice, plow off the snow. Keep moving forward with construction each winter, until there is a road connecting the destinations. Yes, ice roads melt in the summer. The land sections are isolated by muskeg and water, so even if they could be driven, they are inaccessible. Remote inland communities rely on the ice roads for all their supplies, other than supplies that are flown in at great cost. That makes the short ice road season very important for remote communities. When we have a warm winter, the ice roads are not open for very long, which causes a lot of difficulty for the remote communities. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783/160 "2012-06-03T03:59:20Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Look at his starry eyes and tell me this doesn’t look like [deference](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-otyA9WERD8I/TkaxgRqspII/AAAAAAAAAXA/w5_TotesLsw/s1600/bush-abdullah-holding-hands.jpg) Deference hell, he’s thinking that he’s going to get lucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-new-brunswick-decided-to-join-the-usa/621783.md?page=9)