# What if Pres/Vice Pres./Speaker of the House died?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 24, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380 "2001-10-24T20:32:45Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/1 "2001-10-24T20:32:45Z")
Okay, so the President and Vice President die. Then the Speaker of the House becomes President. What if he dies? Then what if that person dies? Let’s see how far down the heirarchy we can go.
---
### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/2 "2001-10-24T20:41:41Z")
As of 1947, this is the order of succession:
The Vice President
Speaker of the House
President pro tempore of the Senate
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Agriculture
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health and Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veterans’ Affairs
I realize that some of the Cabinet positions mentioned did not exist in 1947, but each Cabinet member becomes part of the succession order… and each Secretary is ranked in order of when his/her Cabinet office was created.
---
### Author:  [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/3 "2001-10-24T20:42:33Z")
According to the _World Book_:
> [@](#):
>
> Presidential succession is provided for by Article II and Amendments 20 and 25 of the United States Constitution. Article II states that the vice president shall assume the duties and powers of the president if the president is removed from office, dies, resigns, or is unable to carry out the duties of the office.
>
> …
>
> If both the president and vice president should die or become disqualified, succession is determined by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. This law states that the speaker of the House, and then the president pro tempore of the Senate, are next in succession. The Cabinet follows in this order:
>
> 1. Secretary of state
> 2. Secretary of the treasury
> 3. Secretary of defense
> 4. Attorney general
> 5. Secretary of the interior
> 6. Secretary of agriculture
> 7. Secretary of commerce
> 8. Secretary of labor
> 9. Secretary of health and human services
> 10. Secretary of housing and urban development
> 11. Secretary of transportation
> 12. Secretary of energy
> 13. Secretary of education
> 14. Secretary of veterans affairs
> Under the 1947 law, the secretaries of agriculture, commerce, and labor were added, and the secretary of defense replaced the secretary of war. In 1965, Congress added the secretaries of health, education, and welfare (now health and human services); and housing and urban development to presidential succession. The secretary of transportation was added in 1966, secretary of energy in 1977, secretary of education in 1979, and secretary of veterans affairs in 1989. No Cabinet member may become acting president unless the member is a citizen and at least 35 years old. If the member who would logically succeed to the presidency is less than 35, the presidency passes to the next eligible member.
Hope this helps.
---
### Author:  [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/4 "2001-10-24T20:46:09Z")
Basically, you run through the Cabinet, in order in which the cabinet post was created. See [here](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101032.html). Since Veterans Affairs is the most recent cabinet-level department, that Secretary would be the last. After that? Nothing. (Cabinet members who aren’t Secretaries - such as the U.N. Ambassador, the Enivronmental Protection Administrator and the newly-created Director of Homeland Security - aren’t included.)
IIRC, to prevent total disaster the Cabinet ensures that at least one member is absent from all ceremonial occasions where the Cabinet would assemble in public. I believe it rotates among the members, probably excluding the Big Four of State, Treasury, Defense and Attorney General.
---
### Author:  [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/5 "2001-10-24T20:51:49Z")
Ummm, got any questions after all that? 😃
---
### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/6 "2001-10-24T21:16:30Z")
I would just take the opportunity to mention that this was the premise behind the Rod Serling classic movie “The Man,” starring a rather-youthful James Earl Jones.
The premise: The President and the Speaker die in an accident in Europe. The Veep is still in the country, but a number of weeks earlier had suffered a stroke, or heart attack or something, and was in steadily-declining health.
In any case, he tells the Congressional bigwigs, “I can’t take the job. I probably don’t have much longer myself, and you’ll be facing this situation again in another month or so. You’ll have to go to next in line.”
Well, next in line was the President pro tempore of the Senate, one Douglas Dilman (J.E. Jones) who had been installed in that role merely as a token by the evil Southern Democrats (led by Burgess Meredith) to placate all those noisy, embittered blacks.
---
### Author:  [@Doctor\_Goo\_Fee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Goo_Fee)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/7 "2001-10-24T21:22:49Z")
I have a couple of questions.
The first one I could easily look up myself, but I’ll ask it anyway so that other folks, as ignorant as myself, can get the answer. Who is the President Pro-Tem of the Senate right now?
The second question is: is there any established order of succession beyond the members of the cabinet?
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/8 "2001-10-24T21:28:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Doctor Goo Fee \*
> \*\*I have a couple of questions.
>
> The first one I could easily look up myself, but I’ll ask it anyway so that other folks, as ignorant as myself, can get the answer. Who is the President Pro-Tem of the Senate right now?\*\*
The current President Pro-Tem is Robert Byrd. When the Republicans controlled the Senate, it was Strom Thurmond. Traditionally, the senior senator of the majority party is elected.
---
### Author:  [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/9 "2001-10-24T21:32:12Z")
The current President Pro Tem is Robert Byrd of West Virginia. Traditionally, the position is given to the senior member of the majority party in the Senate.
AFAIK, there is no provision for succession beyond the Cabinet.
---
### Author:  [@Hombre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hombre)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/10 "2001-10-24T21:36:48Z")
Shows what I know…
I thought Haig was next in charge.
---
### Author:  [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/11 "2001-10-24T21:39:14Z")
This thread frightens me. Too damn many simul-posts.
---
### Author:  [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/12 "2001-10-24T21:46:44Z")
Robert Byrd is pres pro tem now
---
### Author:  [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/13 "2001-10-24T21:56:00Z")
Okay, so we’ll say the President dies and the Vice President steps up to the plate. Who becomes the Vice President? Does the Speaker of the House step in or is there someone who gets voted in by the cabinet or something? Obviously, the whole system can’t play musical chairs if someone dies (or becomes incapable of fulfilling their duties).
---
### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/14 "2001-10-24T21:59:16Z")
There is no constitutional provision for succession beyond the Cabinet. In the event of a disaster so great as to wipe out the President, VP, Speaker, and Senate President pro tem _and_ entire Cabinet simultaneously, the quickest way to get a legal successor would be for House to elect a new Speaker, who would then succeed to the Presidency. Assuming there still was a House, of course.
**Dale the Bold** , according to the 25th Amendment, in the event of a vacancy in the Vice Presidency, the President nominates a VP who must then be confirmed by a majority of both Houses.
---
### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/15 "2001-10-24T22:03:00Z")
PS. Gerald Ford succeeded Spiro Agnew, and Nelson Rockefeller succeeded Gerald Ford, by the provisions of the 25th Amendment.
---
### Author:  [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/16 "2001-10-24T22:39:55Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by OxyMoron \*
> **Basically, you run through the Cabinet, in order in which the cabinet post was created. See [here](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101032.html). Since Veterans Affairs is the most recent cabinet-level department, that Secretary would be the last.**
Actually, isn’t the new post of Homeland Defense a cabinet-level position, and wouldn’t Tom Ridge therefore be the last guy in line? Or has Congress not approved the necessary legislation to create the office yet?
---
### Author:  [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/17 "2001-10-24T22:52:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by OxyMoron \*
> > **Basically, you run through the Cabinet, in order in which the cabinet post was created. See [here](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101032.html). Since Veterans Affairs is the most recent cabinet-level department, that Secretary would be the last.**
>
> Actually, isn’t the new post of Homeland Defense a cabinet-level position, and wouldn’t Tom Ridge therefore be the last guy in line? Or has Congress not approved the necessary legislation to create the office yet? \*\*
Um, see the sentence from my post that you quoted? Read the _next_ sentence, and you’ll have your answer…😃
---
### Author:  [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/18 "2001-10-24T23:10:17Z")
The order of succession beyond Vice President is defined in [3 USC § 19](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/3/19.html). The order, as previously noted in this thread, is Speaker of the House, President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Secretary of State, Secretary of the Treasury, Secretary of Defense, Attorney General, Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of Agriculture, Secretary of Commerce, Secretary of Labor, Secretary of Health and Human Services, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Secretary of Transportation, Secretary of Energy, Secretary of Education, Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Congress amends this list whenever it seems appropriate to do so (such as the creation of a new Cabinet post or the abolition of the same). Persons not eligible to serve as President due to the age, birth, or residency requirements, and those who refuse to serve, are skipped.
It takes an Act of Congress to alter the order, so the creation of the Office of Homeland Security (or whatever it’s called) does not alter the order until Congress says it does. While it happens that the order in the list is the order in which the Departments were created, this is “coincidence” and the creation of new Cabinet departments does not automatically insert the new Cabinet head into the order. The Congressional bill which would create the Office of Homeland Security (H.R. 3026, which you can look up if you like on [Thomas](http://thomas.loc.gov/)) does not make the Director of Homeland Security a full Cabinet member and does not insert the post into the line of succession. Congress could create an entirely new department with a secretary and all, and still choose not to include it in the succession order if it so chose.
---
### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/19 "2001-10-24T23:19:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem_
> Actually, isn’t the new post of Homeland Defense a cabinet-level position, and wouldn’t Tom Ridge therefore be the last guy in line? Or has Congress not approved the necessary legislation to create the office yet?
The Homeland Defense dude is “cabinet level” in that he reports directly to the President, but he is not a Secretary (he doesn’t get his own Department.)
This is why Bush did not need Congressional approval to appoint him; only Congress can create new Departments (and thus “real” cabinet posts.)
[fixed coding]
[Edited by bibliophage on 10-26-2001 at 02:37 AM]
---
### Author:  [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380/20 "2001-10-24T23:37:55Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Colibri \*
> **There is no constitutional provision for succession beyond the Cabinet.**
Actually, there is no **Constitutional** provision for succession beyond the Vice President. The succession beyond the Vice President is solely statutory in authority (and, as such, is of fairly questionable authority: nowhere in the Constitution does it clearly state that Congress may designate who is to be President in the event of the simultaneous vacancy of both the Presidency and the Vice Presidency).
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-pres-vice-pres-speaker-of-the-house-died/89380.md?page=2)