# What if R.E. Lee fought for the Union? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029 "2011-07-22T21:13:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/21 "2011-07-23T07:15:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes I have always disliked that assessment. Grant is (outside the US) always considered as one of the premier generals of all time and Lee if he is even remembered is thought of as “one of the guys Grant beat”. > > Grant was miles ahead of Lee as a strategist, Lee had not a hope against him vis a via logistics and Grant was definatly his superior tactically. > > Lee with Grants army would never have been able to achieve any thing like what US Grant did; he would not have Grants strategic outlook nor his abilities with logistics. Grant understood something that most other generals of his era did not (Sherman being a notable exception). They were focused on winning battles. He was focused on winning the war. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/22 "2011-07-23T08:19:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m sorry, did you just dismiss Nathan Bedford Forrest’s abilities as a commander? The man who paralyzed whole armies through cavalry raids, crushed superior units time and time again with quite varied strategies, from courage to superior manuevering to surprise to deception?.. > > It doesn’t matter whether you _like_ him or not. Forrest may have been the most gifted soldier of his day leading independant units. . Nope, he was _one_ of three very good CSA calvary raiders. J.E.B. Stuart was better, Turner Ashby would have been great had he not died early. John S. Mosby was also one of the greats, doing the most with the smallest forces. as wiki sez “I_n the Western Theater, the most fearless, and ruthless, cavalry commander was Nathan Bedford Forrest, who achieved spectacular results with small forces but was an ineffective subordinate to the army commanders he was supposed to support, resulting in poorly coordinated battles._” which made him one of the great cavalry leaders but a piss-poor general. If NBF had not turned out to be the poster child for Southern apologists, he’d be remembered at best as the 2nd best CSA Cavalry leader. Compared to Stonewall Jackson, RE Lee and other real generals, his operations were at best a footnote. Note that NBF has more memorials and stuff named after him than any other CSA general- not because he was a great general, but because you can praise him without being obviously a Southern apologist. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/23 "2011-07-23T09:44:45Z")
the only thing i’ll be sure of is arlington cemetary would still be called R.E. Lee Estate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/24 "2011-07-23T13:11:55Z")
> [@Bri2k](#): > > This got me thinking: what if Robert E. Lee fought for the Union? And betrayed it from within? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/25 "2011-07-23T14:22:27Z")
And what if the Confederacy had a Piper Cub? Oh, wait, that was Spartacus. You can get away from only the most trivial facts in the what-if game before it becomes simple fantasizing. It’s fun, though, no question. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/26 "2011-07-23T14:43:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And what if the Confederacy had a Piper Cub? Oh, wait, that was Spartacus. > > You can get away from only the most trivial facts in the what-if game before it becomes simple fantasizing. It’s fun, though, no question. Robert E. Lee was an officer in the United States Army in 1861. How exactly is it nothing but fantasy to consider the possibility of him fighting for the Union? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/27 "2011-07-23T15:21:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And what if the Confederacy had a Piper Cub? Oh, wait, that was Spartacus. > > You can get away from only the most trivial facts in the what-if game before it becomes simple fantasizing. It’s fun, though, no question. And what if **Elvis** hadn’t decided to threadshit? I know, I know, simple fantasy! But it’s fun to think about. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/28 "2011-07-23T17:14:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Robert E. Lee was an officer in the United States Army in 1861. How exactly is it nothing but fantasy to consider the possibility of him fighting for the Union? What rapidly becomes fantasy is considering what ramifications that would have had. Was that not clear? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/29 "2011-07-23T17:28:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Grant was miles ahead of Lee as a strategist, Lee had not a hope against him vis a via logistics and Grant was definatly his superior tactically. I’ll easily give you the strategist part of that equation. Lee does not come off as all that great as a strategic mind. But tactically I think it is a much closer contest. Whether you agree or disagree with the _strategic_ necessity of the Overland Campaign, _tactically_ Grant got the worst of it in virtually every encounter. It was various versions of try to turn Lee’s flank, fail, launch a frontal assault, fail, wash and repeat. While Lee suffered proportionally greater casualties ( and thus could be said to have lost strategically ), Grant suffered almost double the actual casualties and ended up with his army paralyzed, though to be fair so was Lee. Meanwhile in strategic terms Grant does not seem to have appreciated ( at least at a distance ) why Sherman was largely ignoring Hood in preference to gutting the South. Grant seemed somewhat fixated on destroying the enemy army, whereas I think Sherman had the right idea in dismissing the temptation to be drawn into a chase against a now somewhat ineffectual shell of a force. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/30 "2011-07-23T18:47:49Z")
What if Robert E. Lee was safely based in Montreal? Anyway, I agree that selling Grant short is unjustified, but if Grant and Lee were on the same side, I don’t see the Confederacy lasting very long. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/31 "2011-07-23T20:43:29Z")
I’m not sure of Lee’s status within the army before the war started. IANACWH (I am not a Civil War historian) Why would he have been chosen to lead the Union Army (Potomac edition) initially? Are we confering on him his reputation/history as a commander earned during the Civil War as some sort of prequel? Was he the highest ranked general at the openning of the war? Did he have any relationship with Lincoln? How many battles (defeats) would it have taken for him to be recognized as the Union savior? Did he have a relationship with Grant before the war? Would Grant have pitched Lee to Lincoln as an army commander? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/32 "2011-07-23T20:50:37Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Did he have a relationship with Grant before the war? > Would Grant have pitched Lee to Lincoln as an army commander? I was trying to find the _Family Guy_ clip of a Civil War re-enactment of the Appomattox surrender (with a pro-southern twist) to illustrate the relationship between these two, but I guess you’ve all seen it by now anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/33 "2011-07-23T21:26:22Z")
**smithsb** , Lee was indeed well regarded before the War. He had been a top graduate at West Point, distinguished himself in the Mexican-American War (wherein he _was_ acquainted with Grant, and other officers who would later win fame fighting one another), returned to West Point as Superintendent, and famously led the federal detachment that [captured John Brown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown%27s_raid_on_Harpers_Ferry). He spent thirty years as a United States Army officer, and was held in great esteem by commanding general [Winfield Scott](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winfield_Scott), whose opinion carried far more weight than Grant’s. He was _actually offered_ a major general command (his last promotion, personally approved by Lincoln, had been to colonel) just before Virginia’s secession. (The offer is depicted in the [opening scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsW5GHRR02k) of the movie _Gods & Generals_.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/34 "2011-07-23T22:58:15Z")
It’s worth noting that a lot of other officers were very highly esteemed before the war, but turned out to be virtually useless in it, while some who emerged from the war with some of the great names in history were regarded either lowly or not at all, or were even civilians. There was never any way to be confident which way a pick would go, and there is little value in hindsight on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/35 "2011-07-23T23:06:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What if Robert E. Lee was safely based in Montreal? He’d likely be working with [these people](http://www.republiquelibre.org/cousture/SUD2.HTM) to try to help the Confederacy win, maybe helping the Confederacy’s cross-border raids from Montreal into the States be more effective than they were, maybe enough to spark a US invasion that the British forces there could not resist, maybe spreading the conflict into Europe. By that point, there might not have been any reason for John Wilkes Booth to recruit followers there from his rooms at the Saint Lawrence Hall hotel. Sort of a strange question there. Whatever made you wonder about it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/36 "2011-07-24T00:54:06Z")
What might be mildly amusing is to write an alternate-history short story where Lee accepts Lincoln’s offer, then dies during the first battle after falling from his horse. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/37 "2011-07-24T01:15:34Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Meanwhile in strategic terms Grant does not seem to have appreciated ( at least at a distance ) why Sherman was largely ignoring Hood in preference to gutting the South. Grant seemed somewhat fixated on destroying the enemy army, whereas I think Sherman had the right idea in dismissing the temptation to be drawn into a chase against a now somewhat ineffectual shell of a force. To give Grant credit, he wasn’t in the same situation that Sherman was in. Sherman was marching through Georgia; he could afford to avoid Johnston and Hood. But Grant was fighting in northern Virginia; he had to focus on containing Lee’s army or risk the possibility that Lee might make another feint against Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/38 "2011-07-24T01:51:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To give Grant credit, he wasn’t in the same situation that Sherman was in. Sherman was marching through Georgia; he could afford to avoid Johnston and Hood. But Grant was fighting in northern Virginia; he had to focus on containing Lee’s army or risk the possibility that Lee might make another feint against Washington. Oh, sure. I didn’t mean Grant should have been ignoring Lee. Rather that Grant ( and Lincoln ) were worried that _Sherman_ was letting Hood slip away to cause havoc by not pursuing him into Alabama and finishing him. Grant wired Sherman about these concerns, but let Sherman talk him out of countermanding him. Sherman, wisely in retrospect, thought that Hood had made a signal error in pulling out of Georgia to threaten Sherman’s communication lines, leaving Sherman an unobstructed route straight to Savannah. Hood and Davis hoped to pull Sherman back out of Georgia, Grant and Lincoln thought Sherman should have let himself be pulled. Instead Sherman ignored that feint and proceeded to gut the Confederacy instead. I think Grant was a solid strategic thinker, but Sherman may have been a better one. Certainly in that instance events proved him correct. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/39 "2011-07-24T01:57:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What might be mildly amusing is to write an alternate-history short story where Lee accepts Lincoln’s offer, then dies during the first battle after falling from his horse. [Traveller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_(horse)) would never do that to Marse Bobby! > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > If he wasn’t, then the correct asnwer is General Washington himself. Washington and Grant share another skill: they were both considered the finest riders in their armies. Even Longstreet said, “In horsemanship, however, he was noted as the most proficient in the Academy. In fact, rider and horse held together like the fabled centaur…” More Grant horses: [ULYSSES S. GRANT HOMEPAGE - Grant the Equestrian](http://www.granthomepage.com/grantequestrian.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029/40 "2011-07-24T02:14:08Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > [Traveller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_(horse)) would never do that to Marse Bobby! Marse _Robert_, [you mean](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_%28novel%29)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-r-e-lee-fought-for-the-union/590029.md?page=3)