# What If Religious Conversion Leads to Substantive Improvements In the Person **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709 "2010-09-05T20:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/21 "2010-09-06T03:52:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Based on MY personal experience, this is usually the case. I have never seen someone convert and become a worse person. I’ve seen the bad people in religion, but they were, as Lynn says, already bad people to begin with, and are actually better than they were. > > I’d say that, even from an atheistic viewpoint, a non-bigoted religion can be and often is a very positive thing. The majority of people I know who are Christians are happy people. The majority of atheists I know are cynical skeptics who are occasionally happy. I’m not saying there aren’t depressed Christians out there, but there seem to be a lot more depressed atheists. Living in a society that regards you as monstrously evil will do that. Some of that “Christian happiness” comes from enjoying inflicting misery on others. How many of the people who voted for Proposition 8 here in California were those “happy Christians”, reinforcing that happiness by gleefully oppressing others? Besides that, as someone once said “happiness alone is only enough if you are a cow”. If I were to make someone happy by dishonestly telling them that they were going to come into a lot of money, would that be a good act? Believers base their happiness in large part on a falsehood, on anticipating a reward that is just a lie. To go back to the OP, why is exchanging the pleasure of an addictive drug for the lies of a religion anything other than changing addictions? And the fact that religions are lies is going to cause this hypothetical person to make very bad decisions. They’ll spend money foolishly, vote foolishly, and behave towards others foolishly (or worse than foolishly) because they are basing their behavior on falsehoods and making decisions with a judgment process rendered defective by religion. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/22 "2010-09-06T16:25:39Z")
The problem I have with people who have sudden, drastic conversions - and yes, this can be religion or a different life philosophy/ idealism - is that it’s driven by emotion high, not rational decision. Which means that once that rush wears off, and sooner or later, it will, you have to deal with the downfall. That’s what a lot of the Christians raised in evangelical attitude but with a certain personality - the rational type - struggle with: they don’t feel the spirit guiding them 24/7. So they dedicate their lives to Christ over and over and over … and feel like hypocrites, and in the end, many turn away. (People with the emotional character type, who really can feel that, still have to suppress occasional doubt, and over time, that’s not a healthy way). You can see the same with political ideologies: people who go from left to right or vice versa, without pausing in the middle at democracy. Because both extreme sides have authoritarian structures, a higher purpose for your life, enemies to make an epic struggle out of mundane life - just like religion. So people follow a different leader, same as the old boss. That’s not saying you can reason yourself into faith - that’s an oxymoron of what faith is. But you can make the rational decision to live your life according to the golden rule or Kant’s maxime or whatever, and then you have an easier time and a better future prospect of keeping with it, then being swayed by your emotions today, and crashing down one week later from disappointment. Because, if the hypothetical person from your example, who was a slob and self-destructive, then found a religion to be a good person, next finds a religion, or church/ congregation telling him to go out and smite all unbelievers? What then? To > [@Bert Brecht](#): > > Einer fragte Herrn K., ob es einen Gott gäbe. > > Herr K. sagte: "Ich rate dir, nachzudenken, ob dein Verhalten je nach der Antwort auf diese Frage sich ändern würde. > Würde es sich nicht ändern, dann können wir die Frage fallen lassen. > > Würde es sich ändern, dann kann ich dir wenigstens noch so weit behilflich sein, dass ich dir sage, du hast dich schon entschieden: > > Du brauchst einen Gott." > > _One asked Mr. K if there were a God. > Mr. K said “I advise you to think about if your behaviour would change depending on the answer to that question. > If it wouldn’t change, we can drop the question. > If it would change, I can help you insofar as to tell you that you have already decided: > you need a God.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/23 "2010-09-06T20:18:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Based on MY personal experience, this is usually the case. I have never seen someone convert and become a worse person. I’ve seen the bad people in religion, but they were, as Lynn says, already bad people to begin with, and are actually better than they were. > > > > I’d say that, even from an atheistic viewpoint, a non-bigoted religion can be and often is a very positive thing. The majority of people I know who are Christians are happy people. The majority of atheists I know are cynical skeptics who are occasionally happy. I’m not saying there aren’t depressed Christians out there, but there seem to be a lot more depressed atheists. > > Living in a society that regards you as monstrously evil will do that. Some of that “Christian happiness” comes from enjoying inflicting misery on others. How many of the people who voted for Proposition 8 here in California were those “happy Christians”, reinforcing that happiness by gleefully oppressing others? > > Besides that, as someone once said “happiness alone is only enough if you are a cow”. If I were to make someone happy by dishonestly telling them that they were going to come into a lot of money, would that be a good act? Believers base their happiness in large part on a falsehood, on anticipating a reward that is just a lie. **To go back to the OP, why is exchanging the pleasure of an addictive drug for the lies of a religion anything other than changing addictions?** > > And the fact that religions are lies is going to cause this hypothetical person to make very bad decisions. They’ll spend money foolishly, vote foolishly, and behave towards others foolishly (or worse than foolishly) because they are basing their behavior on falsehoods and making decisions with a judgment process rendered defective by religion. From a practical viewpoint drug use heavily damages both the mind and body but religion (unless it is a cult) still leaves people competent for other tasks. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/24 "2010-09-06T21:02:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > **To go back to the OP, why is exchanging the pleasure of an addictive drug for the lies of a religion anything other than changing addictions?** > > From a practical viewpoint drug use heavily damages both the mind and body but religion (unless it is a cult) still leaves people competent for other tasks. What determines which religions are not cults? It seems to me one man’s cult is another man’s salvation, and vice-versa. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/25 "2010-09-06T21:33:15Z")
I, personally don’t believe in any god. However, some people do, an some people have done some pretty crummy things in the name of god and in the name of there not being a god. One doesn’t necessarily make the other. If you can use religion as a crutch to make yourself a better person and then discard the crutch when you get strong enough, I see no problem with that. If you retain the crutch and keep being that person or a better person, that’s good. Qadgop already put it best, but doing something because of an eternal reward or punishment isn’t necessarily having the best of motives. It’s what you do when nobody is loking. That’s how you know you’re being a good person ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/26 "2010-09-06T21:37:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > And the fact that religions are lies is going to cause this hypothetical person to make very bad decisions. They’ll spend money foolishly, vote foolishly, and behave towards others foolishly (or worse than foolishly) because they are basing their behavior on falsehoods and making decisions with a judgment process rendered defective by religion. > > From a practical viewpoint drug use heavily damages both the mind and body but religion (unless it is a cult) still leaves people competent for other tasks. But it doesn’t. Being religious requires and imposes poor judgment and erroneous beliefs that affect all sorts of behavior. Religion isn’t some harmless indulgence, it makes people a danger to themselves and others. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/27 "2010-09-06T21:38:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > From a practical viewpoint drug use heavily damages both the mind and body but religion (unless it is a cult) still leaves people competent for other tasks. Most popular drugs actually don’t. Or do you think we should get rid of the demon drink? The same thing applies to religion: in moderation, it won’t harm you much. It just tends to make you a little fuzzy. The problem is, when you really believe the stuff that’s in the texts. Luckily, most religious people do not. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/28 "2010-09-06T22:32:00Z")
There are some groups that know they have found the truth and the way .They include Branch Davidians Heavens Gate Jonestown Solar Temple Jeff Lundgren Aum Shinri Kyo and many others that convert people to the “truth” . Are they better people? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/29 "2010-09-06T23:02:07Z")
If only we cold separate religious belief from religious practice. I just read something about Francis Collins. Raised without religion, he became a believer as an adult. Fine if it turns him on, but why oh why did he have to adopt the peculiar passel of bizarre beliefs that characterize Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/30 "2010-09-07T00:00:34Z")
Actually, I straightened up and became a better person when I had my atheist epiphany in my early 20’s and realized I had to be entirely responsible for my own actions - no blaming it on gods, devils, sun signs, ley lines or alien abductions. It was a bucket of cold water that said the universe neither had it in for me nor would it reward me for anything, and my own success or failure was largely in my own hands. Made me a raving liberal, regular contributor to various assorted charities, a volunteer, and is probably responsible for all the stray cats around. Whatever it looks like to anyone else, I like myself better this way and I seem to be regarded as an okay member of society, at least to my face. The cats like me, anyhow. I suppose this is just a longer way of saying what **QtM** said above about being other directed. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/31 "2010-09-07T00:15:11Z")
> [@Mrs.Cake](#): > > Actually, I straightened up and became a better person when I had my atheist epiphany in my early 20’s and realized I had to be entirely responsible for my own actions - no blaming it on gods, devils, sun signs, ley lines or alien abductions. It was a bucket of cold water that said the universe neither had it in for me nor would it reward me for anything, and my own success or failure was largely in my own hands. Made me a raving liberal, regular contributor to various assorted charities, a volunteer, and is probably responsible for all the stray cats around. Whatever it looks like to anyone else, I like myself better this way and I seem to be regarded as an okay member of society, at least to my face. The cats like me, anyhow. > > I suppose this is just a longer way of saying what **QtM** said above about being other directed. According to orthodox religion (except extreme predestinationists) you are responsible for your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/32 "2010-09-07T00:32:16Z")
Maybe the germane point about the way religious people behave comes from their motivation; it seems like the religious people who do things out of love are a different type of person than the ones who are doing things out of fear. I think the worst products of religion that we’re currently seeing are all fear-based. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/33 "2010-09-07T00:38:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > According to orthodox religion (except extreme predestinationists) you are responsible for your actions. “Sometimes the devil makes you do things.” Conversely, “Help me Jesus!” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/34 "2010-09-07T00:58:27Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > According to orthodox religion (except extreme predestinationists) you are responsible for your actions. > > “Sometimes the devil makes you do things.” > > Conversely, “Help me Jesus!” It means Satan tempts you but you can resist it. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/35 "2010-09-07T01:12:42Z")
This reminds me of the documentary _New York Doll_, about Arthur Kane, former bass player for the New York Dolls. Apparently, after the band broke up way back when, he had a bit of trouble with drinking and drugs. At some point, pretty much at rock bottom, he found the Mormon Church. Although he never did achieve all that much after finding religion (he worked for the LDS genealogy office, and appeared to have been somewhat of a charity case at that), it did seem to give him what he needed in life. The movie I think picks up the story when Morrissey manages to convince the New York Dolls to get back together, so there’s a bit of an amusing contrast between the two parts of Arthur’s life. The two sweet old ladies that work with him joke about how they’re apparently groupies now. Then there’s the reunion show, and it looks like things might work out happily ever after, but Arthur was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died months later. It’s a real tearjerker of an epilogue. As misguided as I find the teachings of the LDS Church, and as much as I detest the political meddling of the Church as an organization, I can’t really argue that converting was a bad thing for Arthur Kane. And being that I’m an atheist myself, I don’t think he was ever in any danger of imperiling his soul no matter what he chose. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/36 "2010-09-07T01:16:19Z")
My father converted in the last 10 years of his life and it really improved the quality of his life and my mothers regardless of the “truth” of details. My brother in law was an alcoholic and a pain in the ass, hurting his life and my sisters, and all of us who loved her. The positive effect of his/their conversion has far outweighed any negative. Whether non believers like it or not the religious path can be the right one for some people. OTOH my atheist sister is acts more Christian than most Christians I know. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/37 "2010-09-07T03:47:01Z")
Religion can be, and has been used to justify pretty much everything. That right there is its biggest flaw. What if someone quits drinking because he thought the government was injecting all alcohol with nanorobots that eat your brain matter? He made the right choice, but no matter what choice he makes it doesn’t change the fact that his reasoning was flawed. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/38 "2010-09-07T04:07:38Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Religion can be, and has been used to justify pretty much everything. That right there is its biggest flaw. > > What if someone quits drinking because he thought the government was injecting all alcohol with nanorobots that eat your brain matter? He made the right choice, but no matter what choice he makes it doesn’t change the fact that his reasoning was flawed. If he becomes not only sober but a much nicer person in general, kinder , more helpful to others, much more beneficial to himself and society, then the good far outweighs the bad, which I think is what the OP was getting at. What if someone goes from believer to atheist and becomes a bitter asshole who constantly badgers believers about how stupid they are for believing fairy tales, because he is suddenly intellectually superior? If someone is a good person in general I don’t care about their god belief or lack of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/39 "2010-09-07T04:23:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If he becomes not only sober but a much nicer person in general, kinder , more helpful to others, much more beneficial to himself and society, then the good far outweighs the bad, which I think is what the OP was getting at. Right, but the point is not to lose sight of how this person became much nicer - through lies. Sometimes lying can be a good thing, but it’s still lying. You have to recognize that lying to get someone to change for the better is not always the best approach. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/40 "2010-09-07T04:26:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > \ > > If someone is a good person in general I don’t care about their god belief or lack of it. That’s pretty much where I stand (as long as their God belief doesn’t include pestering me). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709.md?page=3)