# What If Religious Conversion Leads to Substantive Improvements In the Person **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709 "2010-09-05T20:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/41 "2010-09-07T04:32:16Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > If he becomes not only sober but a much nicer person in general, kinder , more helpful to others, much more beneficial to himself and society, then the good far outweighs the bad, which I think is what the OP was getting at. > > Right, but the point is not to lose sight of how this person became much nicer - through lies. > > Sometimes lying can be a good thing, but it’s still lying. You have to recognize that lying to get someone to change for the better is not always the best approach. Nobody is talking about someone being intentionally lied to for improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/42 "2010-09-07T04:34:28Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Lakai](#): > > > > Right, but the point is not to lose sight of how this person became much nicer - through lies. > > > > Sometimes lying can be a good thing, but it’s still lying. You have to recognize that lying to get someone to change for the better is not always the best approach. > > Nobody is talking about someone being intentionally lied to for improvement. I guess we’ll have to disagree on that point. I don’t want to hijack this thread with a debate on whether or not religion is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/43 "2010-09-07T04:35:55Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > \ > > > > If someone is a good person in general I don’t care about their god belief or lack of it. > > That’s pretty much where I stand (as long as their God belief doesn’t include pestering me). true story A friend at work is helping a customer who is a talkative and friendly. Some Christian references are made , and my friend winds up helping this guy out to his car with his purchases. The customer asked, Do you mind if I ask you a question? My friend, guessing what’s coming, says “As long as I get to ask you one” Customer does some typical “Do you know Jesus?” thing and when my friend gets his turn he asks “How long have you been sober?” Turns out he was right on the money and the guy was a little miffed. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/44 "2010-09-07T04:39:18Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > Nobody is talking about someone being intentionally lied to for improvement. > > I guess we’ll have to disagree on that point. I don’t want to hijack this thread with a debate on whether or not religion is a lie. Even if there is no god , there’s no intentional lie if a believer converts someone. What can happen is someone has some epiphany about life and love and meaning and belonging , or a feeling of forgiveness and being valued , whatever. Regardless of dogma, those feelings and their benefit can be very real. Consider it a placebo if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/45 "2010-09-07T07:02:23Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > From a practical viewpoint drug use heavily damages both the mind and body but religion (unless it is a cult) still leaves people competent for other tasks. > > What determines which religions are not cults? It seems to me one man’s cult is another man’s salvation, and vice-versa. A cult is a group that cuts someone off from all contact with the outside world and causes them to depend upon a single group for all human contact. It correlates heavily with that person getting their ass killed, either through suicide or ATF raid. Cults are not the same as most religious organizations you’ve heard of. They’re honestly different and more dangerous in the immediate term, especially to their members. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/46 "2010-09-07T14:25:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Lakai](#): > > > > I guess we’ll have to disagree on that point. I don’t want to hijack this thread with a debate on whether or not religion is a lie. > > Even if there is no god , there’s no intentional lie if a believer converts someone. > > What can happen is someone has some epiphany about life and love and meaning and belonging , or a feeling of forgiveness and being valued , whatever. Regardless of dogma, those feelings and their benefit can be very real. > > Consider it a placebo if you will. I don’t care that one person who thought the placebo was the real deal convinced someone else - and therefore didn’t lie. The placebo itself is a lie. Which may or may not be a bad thing depending on the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/47 "2010-09-07T14:33:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’d say that, even from an atheistic viewpoint, a non-bigoted religion can be and often is a very positive thing. The majority of people I know who are Christians are happy people. Christianity is an example of a non-bigoted religion? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/48 "2010-09-07T15:41:04Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > > [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > > > What determines which religions are not cults? It seems to me one man’s cult is another man’s salvation, and vice-versa. > > A cult is a group that cuts someone off from all contact with the outside world and causes them to depend upon a single group for all human contact. Where does that put people who _only_ listen to Fox News? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/49 "2010-09-07T15:43:27Z")
> [@Mrs.Cake](#): > > Actually, I straightened up and became a better person when I had my atheist epiphany in my early 20’s and realized I had to be entirely responsible for my own actions - no blaming it on gods, devils, sun signs, ley lines or alien abductions. It was a bucket of cold water that said the universe neither had it in for me nor would it reward me for anything, and my own success or failure was largely in my own hands. Made me a raving liberal, regular contributor to various assorted charities, a volunteer, and is probably responsible for all the stray cats around. Whatever it looks like to anyone else, I like myself better this way and I seem to be regarded as an okay member of society, at least to my face. The cats like me, anyhow. > > I suppose this is just a longer way of saying what **QtM** said above about being other directed. Me, too. Suddenly, this world was all there was. The poor aren’t going to get rewarded in heaven, so I need to do what I can for them. The evil aren’t going to be punished in hell, so I need to stand up against them now. This life is all I’ve got, so I need to make the most of it and I need to leave it a better place than I found it. There is no God watching over me and loving me no matter what, so I had better be worthy of real love from real people. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/50 "2010-09-07T16:08:06Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > For instance suppose someone lived a debaunched life that included irresponsible sexual behaviour and heavy drug use and also effectively was a parasite to the economy by not contributing to it I’d just like to point out that I have lived a life of debauchery (including sexual behavior that would shock even you, along with moderate to heavy drug use), yet I do it all during my free time. I am a productive member of society, working 9 to 5 six days a week! The debauchery is all in my free time, thank you. And I _love_ the term debaunched, whilst my spell checker doesn’t. I will use it from here on in, when appropriate, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/51 "2010-09-07T20:21:10Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Derleth](#): > > > > A cult is a group that cuts someone off from all contact with the outside world and causes them to depend upon a single group for all human contact. > > Where does that put people who _only_ listen to Fox News? Uh, a long way away from the compound when it goes up in flames? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/52 "2010-09-08T16:49:01Z")
I’d rather have a druggie that kills himself than a religious person who tries to kill others based on his beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![bartleby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bartleby/32/10491_2.png) [@bartleby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bartleby)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/53 "2010-09-08T19:10:21Z")
Ok, so the underlying thesis here is that all conversion is bad? Someone finding something that the truly believe in, stabilizes their life, and gives them hope and comfort, this is bad? Please tell me that I’m reading this incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/54 "2010-09-08T19:13:41Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > > [@Sailboat](#): > > > > Where does that put people who _only_ listen to Fox News? > > Uh, a long way away from the compound when it goes up in flames? Not really, since their “compound” is the entire United States. The Right’s full of people who have isolated themselves from the rest of society intellectually without any need for a physical separation. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/55 "2010-09-08T19:18:14Z")
If a person’s belief system causes them to act more honestly, more patiently, more kindly, more compassionately, then I don’t care much about what they believe. I care more about how they act. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/56 "2010-09-08T19:46:00Z")
> [@bartleby](#): > > Ok, so the underlying thesis here is that all conversion is bad? Someone finding something that the truly believe in, stabilizes their life, and gives them hope and comfort, this is bad? > > Please tell me that I’m reading this incorrectly. That is the underlying thesis of a lot of the militant atheists in this thread, yes. ETA: What’s the difference between a militant atheist and a fundamentalist religious person? A militant atheist tells you what you can’t believe in; a fundamentalist religious person tells you what you should believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/57 "2010-09-08T20:09:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@bartleby](#): > > > > Ok, so the underlying thesis here is that all conversion is bad? Someone finding something that the truly believe in, stabilizes their life, and gives them hope and comfort, this is bad? > > > > Please tell me that I’m reading this incorrectly. > > That is the underlying thesis of a lot of the militant atheists in this thread, yes. > > ETA: What’s the difference between a militant atheist and a fundamentalist religious person? A militant atheist tells you what you can’t believe in; a fundamentalist religious person tells you what you should believe in. As far as I can tell, a “militant atheist” is just “an atheist who dares say that he’s right”. Meanwhile the fundamentalists are running around beating and killing people and trying to make their delusions the law of the land. Equating them is an example of the typical pro-religious double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/58 "2010-09-08T20:32:59Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > If a person’s belief system causes them to act more honestly, more patiently, more kindly, more compassionately, then I don’t care much about what they believe. I care more about how they act. Well you kind of left nothing to go wrong with that scenario. The problem is that this honest, patient, kind, and compassionate person is very unlikely to have a religious belief system. And if he insisted on calling it religious it would really be a watered down religious system that resembles a version of secular morality. Would you ever say the same thing of a doctor? Say someone successfully cured ten patients using faulty medical reasoning. Would you be their eleventh patient? This isn’t to say I would have nothing to do with your hypothetical person. I would rather have a flawed conversion into kindness than no kindness at all. > [@bartleby](#): > > Ok, so the underlying thesis here is that all conversion is bad? Someone finding something that the truly believe in, stabilizes their life, and gives them hope and comfort, this is bad? > > Please tell me that I’m reading this incorrectly. It’s bad because while he’s stabilizing his own life he’s not helping the lives of women, homosexuals, sexually active teenagers, or the advancement of science. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/59 "2010-09-08T20:52:20Z")
[quote=“Cat\_Whisperer, post:56, topic:552709”] > [@bartleby](#): > > ETA: What’s the difference between a militant atheist and a fundamentalist religious person? A militant atheist tells you what you can’t believe in; a fundamentalist religious person tells you what you should believe in. Actually, a “militant” atheist tells you not to force your beliefs on others. A fundamentalist tries to force you to believe what they do the way they do. What if the religious group someone converts to is the KKK. Sure they may sober up, stop taking drugs or whatever, but they’ll probably become a worse overall person. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709/60 "2010-09-08T20:53:11Z")
> [@bartleby](#): > > Ok, so the underlying thesis here is that all conversion is bad? Someone finding something that the truly believe in, stabilizes their life, and gives them hope and comfort, this is bad? > > Please tell me that I’m reading this incorrectly. That is how I read this thread so far - better to let them die in the gutter than have the horror of an undefined religious conversion occur. As for the OP - If there is a net improvement in the person, that is great. If a thief stops thieving, that is great. If, however, he stops thieving but instead works to delude retirees out of their pensions to fund his air-conditioned dog house through his ministry - then I think we have a net loss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-religious-conversion-leads-to-substantive-improvements-in-the-person/552709.md?page=4)