# What if Satan said... "I'm Sorry" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929 "2011-02-10T19:05:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![beaver\_tagger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b782af/32.png) [@beaver\_tagger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beaver_tagger)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/81 "2011-02-16T03:22:59Z")
I would lose all respect for him…and if I saw him on the street…I would have to think to myself…what a pussy… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/82 "2011-02-16T04:06:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why should he ? He’s an angel. Meaning he doesn’t benefit from that whole “freedom of choice” thing which we are told is the exclusive prerogative of the [del]Master[/del]Human Race. > > Whoever Satan is and whatever he does, it must be because God made him exactly that way and knowingly so (omniscience clause). If anyone has to make excuses or amends, it’s Yahweh. You presume to understand the will of God. You are like ant trying to divine the thoughts of a man. Or at least thats the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/83 "2011-02-16T04:11:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He is also frequently associated with Daniel Webster, Faust and a certain fiddle playing contest. The associations I made are in the bible not in folklore. > [@](#): > > In the Bible, what in particular has he done to ask forgiveness for? 1 John 3:8 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/84 "2011-02-16T04:15:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You presume to understand the will of God. > > You are like ant trying to divine the thoughts of a man. > > Or at least thats the argument. It’s also an incorrect argument thanks to the Christian insistence on tacking all those “omnis” onto their god. “God’s will” is besides the point; if there was an omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe then everything that has ever happened or ever will would happen according to its exact plans, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/85 "2011-02-16T04:26:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The associations I made are in the bible not in folklore. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He is frequently associated with the snake that tempted Eve into eating the forbidden fruit. > > He is frequently associated with Ba’al. > > He has been called the “prince of this world” All of these associations are directly made in the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/86 "2011-02-16T04:33:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 1 John 3:8 1 John 3:8 (King James Version) " 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." i was obviously asking for specific actions that he would want to atone for, like killing all the firstborn sons in a country, drowning almost every living creature on Earth, turning a woman into a pillar of salt for being weak and looking back at the home she had known her whole life, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/87 "2011-02-16T14:58:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s also an incorrect argument thanks to the Christian insistence on tacking all those “omnis” onto their god. “God’s will” is besides the point; if there was an omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe then everything that has ever happened or ever will would happen according to its exact plans, by definition. Well onmiscient doesn’t necessarily mean that you know everything that will happen. Omnipotent doesn’t necessarily mean that you control everything that happens. Of course the Christian use of these words when describing God does imply knowing the future and controlling every molecule in the universe. And perhaps there is a purpose to all this suffering and pain and evil int he world or perhaps he doesn’t give a shit and just lets stuff happen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/88 "2011-02-16T14:59:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1 John 3:8 (King James Version) > > " 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." > > i was obviously asking for specific actions that he would want to atone for, like killing all the firstborn sons in a country, drowning almost every living creature on Earth, turning a woman into a pillar of salt for being weak and looking back at the home she had known her whole life, etc. Tempting eve with the Fruit of knowledge? Rising up against God? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/89 "2011-02-16T15:06:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well onmiscient doesn’t necessarily mean that you know everything that will happen. Um, yes it does. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Omnipotent doesn’t necessarily mean that you control everything that happens. If you are omniscient and created the universe it does. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And perhaps there is a purpose to all this suffering and pain and evil int he world or perhaps he doesn’t give a shit and just lets stuff happen. There can be no greater purpose to pain and suffering when there’s an omnipotent involved; anything that pain and suffering can accomplish the omnipotent could accomplish without them. By definition. If there’s pain and suffering in a world created by an omnipotent it is because the omnipotent wanted pain and suffering for their own sakes. And if “he doesn’t give a shit”, well the Problem of Evil only applies to a tri-omni god in the first place. And in practical terms since believers typically don’t want their god to be amoral, uncaring or evil, your argument might as well be an argument for God not existing at all. Both are unacceptable to them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/90 "2011-02-16T15:40:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Tempting eve with the Fruit of knowledge? The serpent wasn’t Satan, and what did the serpent do that was wrong anyway? All he did was tell Eve the truth. Why is that a sin? > [@](#): > > Rising up against God? How is this possible without God’s will? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/91 "2011-02-16T15:40:52Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > [We](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) [still](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=78978) [wouldn’t](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=62742) [let](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1147899&postcount=9) [him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1170306&postcount=83) [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=46158) [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=45692). Sorry. And if the Perfect Master won’t forgive him, that pretty much settles it! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/92 "2011-02-16T15:44:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well onmiscient doesn’t necessarily mean that you know everything that will happen. Yes it does. That’s the definition. It means you know everything, past, present and future. Plus the Bible says that God knows the future. > [@](#): > > Omnipotent doesn’t necessarily mean that you control everything that happens. That’s exactly what it means. That’s the definition. > [@](#): > > And perhaps there is a purpose to all this suffering and pain and evil int he world or perhaps he doesn’t give a shit and just lets stuff happen. An omnimax being does not require a means to an end. It needs only to will the end. Anything that can be done with pain and suffering can be done without it. It is logically impossible for pain and suffereing to be necessary for an ominax being. If he doesn’t care, then he’s not good, which is a _sine qua non_ for God. The Problem of Evil does not rule out a God who is not good, but it’s not meant to. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/93 "2011-02-16T15:58:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > i was obviously asking for specific actions that he would want to atone for, like killing all the firstborn sons in a country, drowning almost every living creature on Earth, turning a woman into a pillar of salt for being weak and looking back at the home she had known her whole life, etc. We clearly need a "What if Yahweh said… “I’m Sorry” thread! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/94 "2011-02-16T16:03:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Tempting eve with the Fruit of knowledge? You have yet to tie Satan to that serpent, remember? No skipping steps, please. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Rising up against God? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/95 "2011-02-16T17:52:27Z")
I don’t know what **Damuri** is, but, bear in mind, the “That’s not in the Bible!” argument only gets traction with Protestants. Catholics, even after Vatican II, acknowledge the validity of extra-Biblical traditions. (I don’t know about the Orthodox.) ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/96 "2011-02-18T17:22:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > We clearly need a "What if Yahweh said… “I’m Sorry” thread! That’d be awesome, too! Think about it. If the big white dude with the beard\* emerged from the clouds around the United Nations and said something like “I apologize for all the capricious acts of nature that have killed so many millions of my children. The great tsunami was a horrible mistake, the Lisbon earthquake was an abomination, and the famines in Africa have been horrific. They are all mistakes, and I greviously repent. Also, I apologize for not intervening in times of great human suffering and not saving my children from Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and all the others. Free will is one thing; depraved indifference is another, and I am sorry.” Brothers and sisters, that’s infinite shades of awesome right there. Not gonna happen, but it undeniably would be awesome. \*Not PC, but it’d get him recognized. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/97 "2011-02-18T17:44:32Z")
For some reason this thread makes me think of a really crappy direct-to-video movie I rented once, [_Dark Angel: The Ascent._](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109542/) (A young she-devil gets curious about the world above, visits, falls in love, etc.) In this movie, every devil in Hell seems to be Catholic. (I’m sure it was written by Catholics, because there are lines about “the One True Church” and “the First Cause.” Of course, [Christianity is Catholic.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChristianityIsCatholic)) They (at least the first generation of them) did rebel against God, but they’re really sorry now. They pray to crosses despite being cut off from Heaven. They speak of themselves as “the Lord’s servants” (as punishers of the damned) rather than His enemies. The dissonance between this and the traditional image of demons in Christian mythology is never discussed or noticed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/98 "2011-02-18T17:50:54Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > That’d be awesome, too! > > Think about it. If the big white dude with the beard\* emerged from the clouds around the United Nations and said something like “I apologize for all the capricious acts of nature that have killed so many millions of my children. The great tsunami was a horrible mistake, the Lisbon earthquake was an abomination, and the famines in Africa have been horrific. They are all mistakes, and I greviously repent. Also, I apologize for not intervening in times of great human suffering and not saving my children from Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and all the others. Free will is one thing; depraved indifference is another, and I am sorry.” > > Brothers and sisters, that’s infinite shades of awesome right there. > > Not gonna happen, but it undeniably would be awesome. > \*Not PC, but it’d get him recognized. I’d settle for [“We apologise for the inconvenience.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_Long,_and_Thanks_for_All_the_Fish) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/99 "2011-02-18T21:45:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um, yes it does. Well, it still allows for freewill and the consequences thereof, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > If you are omniscient and created the universe it does. Depends on what you mean by omniscient and being omnipotent doesn’t mean you have to exercise that omnipotence, does it? > [@](#): > > There can be no greater purpose to pain and suffering when there’s an omnipotent involved; anything that pain and suffering can accomplish the omnipotent could accomplish without them. By definition. If there’s pain and suffering in a world created by an omnipotent it is because the omnipotent wanted pain and suffering for their own sakes. You seem to think you can understand God’s will. > [@](#): > > And if “he doesn’t give a shit”, well the Problem of Evil only applies to a tri-omni god in the first place. And in practical terms since believers typically don’t want their god to be amoral, uncaring or evil, your argument might as well be an argument for God not existing at all. Both are unacceptable to them. Sure, but if it was good enough for Conan the barbarian… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929/100 "2011-02-18T21:49:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The serpent wasn’t Satan, and what did the serpent do that was wrong anyway? All he did was tell Eve the truth. Why is that a sin? Other parts of the bible refer to the old serpent as satan. SOme people have taken this to mean that the serpent was satan. He didn’t merely tell eve what the fruit was, the title tree of knowledge of good and evil might have done that. Didn’t he say “God doesn’t want you to eat from this because it will make you as smart as him” he enticed her to doing something that God forbade. > [@](#): > > How is this possible without God’s will? Perhaps, Satan can exercise freewill as well. I dunno. I don’t really feel qualified to argue theology with people who seem to have spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-satan-said-im-sorry/570929.md?page=6)