# What if the Duke of Wellington led the British in the War of 1812? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120 "2006-07-04T02:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/1 "2006-07-04T02:42:02Z")
Watching the fireworks, I recalled reading that the Duke of Wellington thought Congreve Rockets were silly and didn’t use them, so if the British had sent him over the America to lead their forces, we’d be sitting in folding chairs looking up at an empty sky. But this led to the larger question for those in the know: would the war have had a different outcome? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/2 "2006-07-04T02:43:33Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] **What if the Duke of Wellington led the British in the War of 1812?** [/QUOTE] 😕 Didn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/3 "2006-07-04T03:23:43Z")
Had Wellington commanded at the bombardment of Fort McHenry, it is possible that we would not be stuck with that execrable song, sung to the tune of an English drinking song (one must be drunk to attempt to sing it), for the national anthem. However, fireworks (not Congreve rockets) were well established as displays by the eighteenth century and their absence at Fort McHenry would not have had an impact on celebrating Independence day. It is remotely possible that, had Wellington been in command on this side of the Atlantic, the war might have been more of a clear-cut victory for the British, but it is not a foregone conclusion. The army that wandered up the Chesapeake Bay was already victorious and Wellington would not necessarily have been available in Canada (where the English/Canadian forces _tended_ to lose (after some initial victories) in the U.S. while the Yanks _tended_ to lose (after some initial victories) in Canada. On the other hand, it was not a war that either nation was excited about and once enough blood had been shed, both sides were pretty willing to settle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/4 "2006-07-04T03:29:09Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Had Wellington commanded at the bombardment of Fort McHenry, it is possible that we would not be stuck with that execrable song, sung to the tune of an English drinking song (one must be drunk to attempt to sing it), for the national anthem. [/QUOTE] What, [“To Anacreon in Heaven?”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Anacreon_in_Heaven)🙂 I agree with you that we could improve on “The Star-Spangled Banner” as a national anthem. My choice would be either “America the Beautiful” or the inexplicably more obscure ]“This Is My Country.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/5 "2006-07-04T03:32:01Z")
Would “Silent Night” work as the national anthem? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/6 "2006-07-04T03:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > On the other hand, it was not a war that either nation was excited about and once enough blood had been shed, both sides were pretty willing to settle. The War of 1812 was a direct effect of the Napoleonic Wars. The British Empire created certain policies to fight France and the United States opposed those policies. But once Napoleon was defeated, the British voluntarily abolished the policies, and while the causes for the war still existed in a theoretical sense, the actual circumstances were no longer there. Being as neither side saw a likelihood of winning a decisive victory, the war just kind of wound down. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/7 "2006-07-04T03:52:01Z")
The chief difference might be that if Wellington had been at New Orleans he likely wouldn’t have commanded a frontal assault on dug in troops. Which would mean that there’d be a different song we’d be without. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/8 "2006-07-04T04:42:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] > [@Slithy Tove](#): > > What if the Duke of Wellington led the British in the War of 1812? 😕 Didn’t he? [/QUOTE] Wellington was the theatre commander in the Peninsular War, and the commander-in-chief of all of the Allied forces in the Waterloo campaign, but he was never involved in the War of 1812. The Commander-in-Chief of the British Army during the War of 1812 was [Frederick, Duke of York](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Frederick,_Duke_of_York#Army) , second son of King George III. Wellington did not become C-in-C until the Duke of York’s death in 1827. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/9 "2006-07-04T05:29:20Z")
Well, doesn’t the very fact that British didn’t send anybody as able as Wellington to America show just how unimportant the War of 1812 seemed to them? In any event, it’s quite possible that the British could have achieved a more clear-cut victory… but there was no chance the British were going to recapture their old colonies. Similarly, the U.S. could have done better in many respects, but there was no realistic hope of capturing Canadian provinces. So, it was a stupid, unnecessary (though probably inevitable) war that settled nothing. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/10 "2006-07-04T19:52:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What, [“To Anacreon in Heaven?”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Anacreon_in_Heaven)🙂 I agree with you that we could improve on “The Star-Spangled Banner” as a national anthem. My choice would be either “America the Beautiful” or the inexplicably more obscure ]“This Is My Country.” [/QUOTE] Change your National Anthem??? For shame sir, for shame ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/11 "2006-07-04T22:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Change your National Anthem??? For shame sir, for shame [/QUOTE] Bleh. I know that I don’t really have a voice in this, but I hatehate_hate_ “The Star Spangled Banner”- I don’t know why, it just seems so discordant and tuneless to me, not to mention way too slow. It’s probably completely irrational, but every time I hear it the rhythm, or the meter, or something rubs me up the wrong way. Bleh. Mind you, I’m not so hot on “God Save the Queen”, either. [SIZE]But I think we should bring back the verse about smashing the Scots. :D[/SIZE] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/12 "2006-07-04T23:05:21Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] The Commander-in-Chief of the British Army during the War of 1812 was [Frederick, Duke of York](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Frederick,_Duke_of_York#Army) , second son of King George III. Wellington did not become C-in-C until the Duke of York’s death in 1827. [/QUOTE] From the link: > [@](#): > > He served as the commander-in-chief of the British Army, presiding over the unsuccessful 1793-98 Flanders campaigns during the French Revolutionary Wars. He is now mainly remembered as the inspiration for the nursery rhyme, “The Grand Old Duke of York”. Hm! I always thought that song was about [who [url=[History of New York City (1665–1783) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_New_York_City_%281665-1783%29)]conquered the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam on Manhattan, and renamed it New York.](]James, the Duke of York (later King James II),[/url) Ignorance smashed! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/13 "2006-07-04T23:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] Bleh. I know that I don’t really have a voice in this, but I hatehate_hate_ “The Star Spangled Banner”- I don’t know why, it just seems so discordant and tuneless to me, not to mention way too slow. It’s probably completely irrational, but every time I hear it the rhythm, or the meter, or something rubs me up the wrong way. Bleh. [/quote] Also, it’s PC-fashionable to despise it for glorifying war – “The rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air.” At least you can’t say that about “America the Beautiful.” [QUOTE=Happy Clam] Mind you, I’m not so hot on “God Save the Queen”, either. [SIZE]But I think we should bring back the verse about smashing the Scots. :D[/SIZE] [/QUOTE] Hm! Never knew about [url=]that either! I did know that verse 2 – > [@](#): > > O Lord, our God, arise, > Scatter her enemies, > And make them fall. > Confound their politics, > Frustrate their knavish tricks, > On Thee our hopes we fix, > God save us all. – was deleted at some point as being “too nationalistic.” Regarding which I agree with George Orwell’s criticism: “Not to have a national anthem would be logical, but if we are to have one its point should be to say that we are Good and the enemy is Bad.” ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/14 "2006-07-04T23:23:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Also, it’s PC-fashionable to despise it for glorifying war – “The rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air.” At least you can’t say that about “America the Beautiful.” [/QUOTE] Couldn’t care less about the words, it’s the music that does it for me. > [@](#): > > Hm! Never knew about [url=]that either! > > I did know that verse 2 – > > – was deleted at some point as being “too nationalistic.” Regarding which I agree with George Orwell’s criticism: “Not to have a national anthem would be logical, but if we are to have one its point should be to say that we are Good and the enemy is Bad.” “Knavish” should be used in far more national anthems. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/15 "2006-07-05T00:14:59Z")
That’s even better than the 3rd verse of the SSB (yes, there’s more than 1): _And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion A home and a country should leave us no more? Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave, And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave._ That means \*you \* blokes. Well, the Hessians too, okay. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/16 "2006-07-05T00:17:21Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] That’s even better than the 3rd verse of the SSB (yes, there’s more than 1): _And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion A home and a country should leave us no more? Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave, And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave._ That means \*you \* blokes. Well, the Hessians too, okay. [/QUOTE] Tsk. Makes it sound like the U.S. **won** the War of 1812. It was a draw, really. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/17 "2006-07-05T00:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Tsk. Makes it sound like the U.S. **won** the War of 1812. It was a draw, really. [/QUOTE] Well, but the defense of Ft McHenry was a victory (if you don’t count that whole burning of the Washington that preceded it) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/18 "2006-07-05T00:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Tsk. Makes it sound like the U.S. **won** the War of 1812. It was a draw, really. [/QUOTE] Well, I believe it was the British who sued for peace (well, initiated the negotiations, anyway). Still, I always figured destroying Washington probably gave the Brits some bragging points. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/19 "2006-07-05T00:39:41Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] Well, I believe it was the British who sued for peace (well, initiated the negotiations, anyway). Still, I always figured destroying Washington probably gave the Brits some bragging points. [/QUOTE] And winning the Battle of New Orleans\* gave the U.S. (and, even more, General Jackson) some bragging points. Still, the U.S. started the war with the slogan, “On to Canada!” and ended with “No inch of territory lost or ceded!” The War of 1812 was pretty much pointless, but, by the standards of international conflicts between powers as large as Great Britain and (even then) the U.S., it was relatively painless, and some good did come of it: The Yanks and the Brits worked out of their systems most of the bad blood left over from the Revolutionary War, negotiated mutually acceptable terms of coexistence, and went on to enjoy a “special relationship” with each other from 1815 to the present. Part of that settlement was that the Americans, who had regarded Canada as a sort of leftover business from the Revolution, to be absorbed whenever the U.S. grew strong enough, now accepted its right to exist indefinitely as a separate entity – resulting in what is now a cheerfully friendly relationship and the world’s longest undefended national border. All things considered, it could have gone much worse. \*Two weeks after the Treaty of Ghent had ended the war, but due to the slowness of communication at the time . . . Well, I bet all those dead soldiers’ families got a big laugh out of **that!** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2006, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120/20 "2006-07-06T10:06:28Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] Well, I believe it was the British who sued for peace (well, initiated the negotiations, anyway). Still, I always figured destroying Washington probably gave the Brits some bragging points. [/QUOTE] Not to mention eating the President’s dinner off his own table. 😃 The US national anthem is unsingable except by the trained voice. Only an eejit writes a national anthem with a range of an octave and a fifth - _and_ it carries on banging on the high notes. On the other hand, _God Save the Queen_ is dull, dull, dull. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-duke-of-wellington-led-the-british-in-the-war-of-1812/363120.md?page=2)