# What if the January 6 insurrection had been more successful? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 1, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442 "2021-07-01T16:56:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/21 "2021-07-01T20:26:51Z")
I never argued that there were no ‘weapons’ there. They jyst weren’t the kind of weapons that can be used to take over a government. Real insurrectionists would have shown up with guns and a tactical plan for taking the Capitol, issuing demands, etc. This was a bunch of angry hotheads egged on by a President with a big mouth and no sense, couplef with a handful of instigators who were there to smash stuff and sause mayhem. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/22 "2021-07-01T20:29:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This was a bunch of angry hotheads egged on by a President with a big mouth and no sense, couplef with a handful of instigators who were there to smash stuff and sause mayhem. - Calling to hang Mike Pence and erecting gallows was merely a courtesy detail? Beating police officers was just playing around? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/23 "2021-07-01T20:30:00Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Real insurrectionists would have shown up with guns and a tactical plan for taking the Capitol, issuing demands… …taking hostages… > **[Insurrectionists didn’t just come to invade the Capitol, some were planning...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/1/8/2007302/-Insurrectionists-didn-t-just-come-to-invade-the-Capitol-some-were-planning-to-take-hostages)** > > The people who besieged the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday were not merely rioters and insurrectionists. Some of them appear to have been intent on taking hostages and murdering them, and there are signs that the attempt was carefully planned out.... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/24 "2021-07-01T20:34:48Z")
Failure to plan and successfully execute a murder still leads to attempted murder charges and (usually) convictions. In the best possible light, this was an attempted coup - despite it being badly planned and unlikely to ultimately succeed - through an act of insurrection. And if they had overwhelmed the police to a great extent through more effective acts of violence, they’d have acquired weapons with which to cause further violence and harm. We know they tried based on the testimony of the cop who was dragged into the crowd and pleaded for his life. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/25 "2021-07-01T20:39:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And if they had overwhelmed the police to a great extent through more effective acts of violence, they’d have acquired weapons with which to cause further violence and harm. Don’t forget about Lonnie Coffman and his pickup. > **['Bad guy,' 'Good Girl': Alabama man with Molotov cocktails in D.C. left...](https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/01/12/lonnie-coffman-indicted-17-federal-charges-molotov-cocktails-guns/6639217002/)** > > Lonnie Coffman, 70, faces 17 federal charges related to the Molotov cocktails and guns found in his truck near the Jan. 6 Capitol riot in D.C. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/26 "2021-07-01T20:46:42Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > None of them were armed with firearms. You have no way of knowing this. Also the rest of your post is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/27 "2021-07-01T20:50:59Z")
How many threads do we already have going on pretty much this same topic? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/28 "2021-07-01T20:52:15Z")
[REFFITT, Guy Wesley](https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/defendants/reffitt-guy-wesley) > Charge(s): > Obstruction of an Official Proceeding and Aiding and Abetting; Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds; Obstruction of Justice - Hindering Communication Through Physical Force or Threat of Physical Force > Superseding indictment issued 6/16 to add firearms charge. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/29 "2021-07-01T20:53:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > They jyst weren’t the kind of weapons that can be used to take over a government. Real insurrectionists would have shown up with guns and a tactical plan for taking the Capitol, issuing demands, etc. Their plan (probably) was to stop the vote counting and create enough chaos to throw the election to the House of Representatives, where Trump would have won. You don’t need machine guns and tanks to do that. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t an insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/30 "2021-07-01T20:55:57Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Their plan (probably) was to stop the vote counting and create enough chaos to throw the election to the House of Representatives, where Trump would have won. You don’t need machine guns and tanks to do that. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t an insurrection. So, you are guessing? And how does running amok in the Capitol cause this to happen exactly? Is this the underpants gnome version of an insurrection? 1. Go over to the Capitol, break in, and run around. 2. ??? 3. Trump is President again! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/31 "2021-07-01T20:57:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And how does running amok in the Capitol cause this to happen exactly? Is this the underpants gnome version of an insurrection? > > 1. Go over to the Capitol, break in, and run around. > 2. ??? > 3. Trump is President again! Actually, it came pretty close to working. If the electoral votes had not be certified that day, the election would have gone to the House. and yes, “Trump is President again!” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/32 "2021-07-01T21:00:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Actually, it came pretty close to working. If the electoral votes had not be certified that day, the election would have gone to the House. and yes, “Trump is President again!” The trick is to do it without pissing off the House Republican delegations. Breaking into Congress and threatening their safety pissed the R’s off and it was no longer a safe bet that the House delegations would vote for Trump over Biden - plus, the R’s had a very narrow edge there to begin with, only 26-24, if I recall right. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/33 "2021-07-01T21:03:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > . Breaking into Congress and threatening their safety pissed the R’s off and it was no longer a safe bet that the House delegations would vote for Trump over Bide True, but I’m sure they didn’t expect to lose Wyoming. Just like they were surprised more of the cops weren’t being helpful. They misjudged the level of support they would have, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t an attempt at insurrection. Viking hats and all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/34 "2021-07-01T21:18:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And how does running amok in the Capitol cause this to happen exactly? Is this the underpants gnome version of an insurrection? > > 1. Go over to the Capitol, break in, and run around. > 2. ??? > 3. Trump is President again! That seems unlikely. It is far more likely that due to extraordinary circumstances, the vote would have been delayed and the attempt to overturn the elections would still have failed. Just because these people failed to come up with an effective plan doesn’t mean an insurrection did not happen. The justice system doesn’t often excuse stupidity or incompetence in the commission of a failed attempt of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/35 "2021-07-01T21:36:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > For example, John F. Kennedy’s assassin was a socialist. Robert F Kennedy’s assassin was a left-wing Palestinian activist. Gerald Ford’s attempted assassin was a crazy leftist. The most recent of those happened the month before I was born, and I’m comfortably middle aged. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/36 "2021-07-01T21:38:06Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Enough with your dishonest characterizations. **Modnote** : Please remember to attack the post and not the poster. That sentence crosses the line into attack **Sam\_Stone**. Do not do this again. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/37 "2021-07-01T21:46:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The most recent of those happened the month before I was born, and I’m comfortably middle aged. Okay. We’ll let that go, for now. But Antifa was definitely on your watch. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/38 "2021-07-01T21:55:10Z")
Clever use of non-parametric methods, whereby one crazed Democrat is equivalent to 400 (and counting) insurrectionists charged (and thousands more outside the capitol). ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/39 "2021-07-01T23:45:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > They weren’t trying to start an insurrection - they were just a bunch of angry people trying to ‘have their voices heard’. Once they broke into the actual Senate chambers they basically just milled around acting like tourists, taking selfies, sitting in the speaker’s chair, etc. None of them were armed with firearms. Enough of them were old and out of shape that several deaths occurred just because of exertion and stress - including the capitol pooice officer who died of natural causes. Later, in another thread… > [@Sam Stone believes Trump's tweets](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/876): > > Amd that’s what I think happened on Jan 6. A protest turned into a riot and bad shit went down - egged on by an asshole ex-president. The evidence shows that the ex-President knowingly and with aforethought raised a private army to attack the Legislative branch with the direct and express purpose of preventing their Constitutionally-defined duty from being exercised, with him doing this at the time and date on which the army would be most effective. His incompetence is not under discussion here. As he was incompetent running the country, he was incompetent in leading an Insurrection. Which is irrelevant to your quotes above. Sam. We literally had a 3,300+ post thread, started on November 9th, 2020, entitled “The American Coup” which detailed every step taken by Trump to raise and lead _this_ Insurrection. There was no doubt about his intentions, even early on - there are a couple of polls asking this very question in the thread. I mean, _I EVEN TOOK THE DAY OFF WORK TO WATCH THE UPCOMING ATTACK_ for God’s sake. 🙄 As we saw the conservatives deny the reality of viruses to the tune of 500,000 excess deaths, such a catastrophic and grave sin I’m just gonna call it The American Genocide from now on… > **[Kushner's coronavirus team shied away from a national strategy, believing...](https://www.businessinsider.com/kushner-covid-19-plan-maybe-axed-for-political-reasons-report-2020-7)** > > Some members of Kushner's COVID-19 team thought it was better to leave Democratic-voting areas to fend for themselves, a source told Vanity Fair. … we now see conservatives deny the reality of literally watching Donald Trump raise a private army as to lead an Insurrection to overturn the Constitution of the United States of America. “Riot” my ass. Only to those who wish to purposely lie to themselves about the true nature of their actions and beliefs. Read the thread. It is documented. No doubt about the reality of the coup, not if “fighting ignorance” is your goal, much less “sharing a consensual reality based upon real-world evidence”. > [@The American Coup: 11.9.2020 -](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-american-coup-11-9-2020/925182): > > thinking Trump fired his Secretary of Defense, replaced Esper with Chris Miller. This is a totally normal thing for an outgoing President to prioritize. Esper then says, in an interview in Military Times, that for the George Floyd protests he (Esper) would not support Trump’s desire to invoke the Insurrection Act against the Floyd protesters: [[Google Photos] ](https://photos.app.goo.gl/9xqbCpACp8jJAxHG6) We know if you’re Donald Trump and you want troops on the streets for a Portland police stat… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442/40 "2021-07-02T01:13:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > None of them were armed with firearms. Are you sure about that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-january-6-insurrection-had-been-more-successful/945442.md?page=3)