# What if the majority religion in our country was Muslim **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042 "2010-10-22T21:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/21 "2010-10-23T06:56:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Truth be told, I’m far more concerned about Christian fanatics in the US than Muslims. They’re the ones hijacking the Republican party. Of course, in MuslimAmerica Muslim fanatics would be the ones hijacking the Republicans and we’d be speculating about what America would be like if it had been Christian. There would also have been a debate on the SDMB a while back over the banning of cathedrals in Switzerland, with people saying that _of course_ Christianity is dangerous, after all it was Christians who flew planes into the World Trade Center. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/22 "2010-10-23T07:56:59Z")
All the billboards in Ohio heading south on the interstate would would say 'Have you found Allah?" and “Allah is watching you.” It’s impossible to answer because the history of the world would be so different. I think Americans would mold Islam the same as they have done with Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![falcotron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@falcotron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/falcotron)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/23 "2010-10-23T10:41:25Z")
If we’re talking about America, the question really doesn’t make sense. Sure, if Tours in 732 or Vienna in 1529 had gone substantially differently, there might have been a Muslim Europe, or maybe a crushed Europe and a colonizing Muslim North Africa, either of which could have given rise to Muslim powers in the new world. Let’s grant that as a possibility. But that still wouldn’t have led to anything remotely like America. So much of America’s foundational history–and, even more, its mythology–is based on European Christian factionalism. Without Henry VIII, the Glorious Revolution, the Reformation and 30 Years War, etc., none of it makes any sense. Without Massachusetts’ Pilgrims, Maryland’s Catholics, Pennsylvania’s “give every sect a chance” idea, etc., who are the colonists? A country settled uniformly by mainstream Sunni Muslims wouldn’t have had the American Revolution, tried to develop the idea of a nation built on ideology instead of ethnicity, etc. At best, you can imagine something like Kemalism arising two centuries early and halfway around the world (and without the examples of western democracy and secularism to inspire it) and say, “Kinda like Turkey, I guess.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/24 "2010-10-23T12:27:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course, in MuslimAmerica Muslim fanatics would be the ones hijacking the Republicans and we’d be speculating about what America would be like if it had been Christian. > > There would also have been a debate on the SDMB a while back over the banning of cathedrals in Switzerland, with people saying that _of course_ Christianity is dangerous, after all it was Christians who flew planes into the World Trade Center. The big reason why Islam has not secularized isn’t entirely history, though. It’s also the simple fact that it is younger. There seems to be a general rule that religions get more accepting of secular concepts as they age. ---
**Author:** ![falcotron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@falcotron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/falcotron)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/25 "2010-10-23T12:49:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The big reason why Islam has not secularized isn’t entirely history, though. It’s also the simple fact that it is younger. There seems to be a general rule that religions get more accepting of secular concepts as they age. I’m not sure about this. Buddhism seems to be generally more secularized than Hinduism, despite being its younger offspring. Judaism has only secularized in the very recent past, and even then mostly within already-secularized Christian countries. Within Christianity, there seems to be more secularization in the Protestant world than the Catholic and Orthodox worlds, even though Protestantism is much younger. Also, is 14 centuries vs. 20 centuries really a big enough difference to swamp accidental historical differences? ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/26 "2010-10-23T16:35:24Z")
I can hardly wait. I think it would be hilarious to watch 'em enforce Sharia law down in Southern California. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/27 "2010-10-23T17:34:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The big reason why Islam has not secularized isn’t entirely history, though. It’s also the simple fact that it is younger. There seems to be a general rule that religions get more accepting of secular concepts as they age. I don’t think this is necessarily so. I think the big difference is that Christianity was a minority religion for the first three hundred years of its existence - it developed as a non-state religion. Islam, on the other hand, caught on quickly - it was a state religion within the lifetime of its founders. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/28 "2010-10-23T17:40:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It wasn’t so long ago that the West including America was just as sexist, and America is still Christian despite being far less sexist than it was. It’s not that Christianity isn’t sexist; the Christian believers are always trying to subjugate women and complaining about how women aren’t slaves like they used to be. They just can’t force their beliefs into law to anywhere near the same extent anymore. I think that MuslimAmerica would have followed the same pattern. It seems to me it has been awhile since males were allowed four wives (much less the thousands of wives some wealthy Arabs have) genital mutilation was practiced, “temporary” marriages were allowed, by Christian leaders. Slavery has been around until recently in historic terms, but I’d say the move against it in the West has been dramatic and decisive. No, Der Trihs, the differences between Islamic sexism and Christian sexism are not trivial. I will grant you that Christian sexism has been deep and ingrained and has lasted into historic times … for example, it was not until the 1990s that the last US state changed its law so that marital rape existed. (Prior to that, the law was that a husband could use his wife sexually as he liked, and she could not claim rape … her consent was perpetual and lifelong). That said, the differences between Arab and Christian sexism are significant, and it’s no use inflating Christian sexism and minimizing Arab sexism to make them seem similar. You have to make reasonable distinctions about these things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/29 "2010-10-23T17:44:18Z")
Another interesting posibility. Would Hollywood have developed in a Muslim country? Islam has rules against depicting human beings. Movies and television are based on that. Obviously, there are now movies and televison industries in Muslim countries. But I question whether they would have originated there is they hadn’t already existed and demonstarted their success in non-Muslim countries. Cultural resistance would have killed off Hollywood before it had a chance to grow. And the American movie and television industry has been a big part of both the American economy and American culture. It would be a big change to American influence on the world and the world’s influence on America if we were an importer of movies and TV rather than an exporter. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/30 "2010-10-23T19:01:27Z")
> [@Der trihs](#): > > ] I see little to choose between them. Both are anti-woman, anti-homosexual, anti-freedom, anti-science, anti-justabouteverything. No, actually Christianity is neither anti-woman, anti-homosexual, anti-science, anti-freedom, or anti-justabouteverything. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Just as Christianity has been, historically. Secularism is a recent development, one that is in opposition to Christianity Wrong again. The origins of the concept of secularism, and the veyr word, come from Christian society, and particularly the splitting of the priesthood into religious and secular segments. In the ancient Pagan societies there was no difference between religious and secular governances. Hence, for example, in the Roman Empire it was required that all persons worship the Emperor, as he was both a government and religious figure. In majority Christian societies there’s always been a separate government and religious leadership. Muslim socieites, on the other hand, did not typically split government and religious leaderhship until the Ottoman invasions. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Christians have historically done things like execute raped women for fornication Another untruth from you. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Christian believers are always trying to subjugate women and complaining about how women aren’t slaves like they used to be. Another untruth from you. Well, **Der Trihs** , you’ve made some specific claims here. Let’s see you back them up with cites. Of course, you’ve been asked to back up your claims against Christianity with cites on numerous occasions and you’ve never been able to do so. Nonetheless, I’m asking you to do it again. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/31 "2010-10-23T19:07:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > It seems to me it has been awhile since males were allowed four wives (much less the thousands of wives some wealthy Arabs have) genital mutilation was practiced, “temporary” marriages were allowed, by Christian leaders. Slavery has been around until recently in historic terms, but I’d say the move against it in the West has been dramatic and decisive. Wealthy men in Christian countries have always had no problem keeping a bevy of mistresses around. Likewise they have no problem visiting prostitutes. I’d say the big difference is with Islam you at least have some obligation to your mistresses and prostitutes, and need to take care of your kids if you knock one of them up. Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic practice, did not originate from Islam, is considered abhorrent in the vast majority of the Muslim world, and is gladly practiced by Christians and pagans in areas that have that custom. It has no more to do with Islam than, say, eating dates. The people I can think of who are the most accepting of slavery- say Taurags in Mali- are considered to be only loosely Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/32 "2010-10-23T19:10:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > We would still have a secular giovernment, so nothing would change. A Muslim majority would not be able to change the Bill of Rights or anything. A sufficiently large majority can change the Bill of Rights. A smaller majority that tries for a long time can get the Supreme Court to interpret the Bill of Rights out of existence. A smaller majority still can elect politicians who ignore what relevant court rulings. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > it was not until the 1990s that the last US state changed its law so that marital rape existed. (Prior to that, the law was that a husband could use his wife sexually as he liked, and she could not claim rape … her consent was perpetual and lifelong). Cite, please. > [@BigT](#): > > The big reason why Islam has not secularized isn’t entirely history, though. It’s also the simple fact that it is younger. There seems to be a general rule that religions get more accepting of secular concepts as they age. I don’t think there’s such a general rule at all. Anyone who knows the history of the Muslims world knows that there’s been an enormous upsurge in religious fervor, and in hatred directed against secular institutions, during the past sixty years. Look at the status of law and government in Iran or Algeria or Pakistan or Saudi Arabia in 1950 and compare it to today. It just doesn’t fit with you “general rule”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/33 "2010-10-23T19:16:59Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, **Der Trihs** , you’ve made some specific claims here. Let’s see you back them up with cites. Of course, you’ve been asked to back up your claims against Christianity with cites on numerous occasions and you’ve never been able to do so. Nonetheless, I’m asking you to do it again. Oh come on - you know as well as I do that if a post from the person in question contains anything true about religion, it is because he missed the edit window. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/34 "2010-10-23T19:27:30Z")
> [@Aquila\_Be](#): > > You’d only need to undertake an honest examination and comparison of Earth’s existing societies that are majority this or that to work that simple question out. > > One effect of living in a Muslim majority country as a non Muslim would be to live as a second class citizen without any meaningful protection under Islamic law. In such circumstances a non Muslim would be forced to flee to a safer environment. This religious purification process is virtually complete in countries and regions like Pakistan and Turkey, and a work in progress in Bangladesh, Indonesia, Iraq, Egypt, Southern Philippines, Southern Thailand and Northern Nigeria. Yeah, no kidding. It’s pretty ridiculous to claim that Islamic and Christianity societies are the same in regards to religious freedom, women’s rights, or countless other topics when a quick check of the facts, current or historical, shows otherwise. For example, in ancient Greece and Rome, about a quarter to a third of baby girls were killed because male children were more valuable, and many parents simply didn’t want to spend the resources to raise a girl. Likewise Rome had the law of Pater Familias, the right of total control for the man at the head of the household, up to the power to execute family members. After Christianity took over in the fourth century, one of the first major changes in Roman society was the abolition of these things. Which would come as no surprise, given how Jesus argued for and fought for the rights of women in the Gospels. But if you read the Koran, you’ll find no arguments for women’s rights from the Prophet Mohammed, so not surprisingly you’ll not see much historical benefit for women’s rights originating in Muslims countries. > [@Shodan](#): > > Oh come on - you know as well as I do that if a post from the person in question contains anything true about religion, it is because he missed the edit window. Yeah, but it’s still fun to poke him about it and see what the response is. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/35 "2010-10-23T19:44:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Cite, please. Comin’ right up: > [@](#): > > Several countries in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia made spousal rape illegal before 1970, but other countries from the Western World outlawed it much later, mostly in the 1980s and 1990s. In the US spousal rape is illegal in all 50 states; the first state to outlaw it was South Dakota in 1975,[1] and the last North Carolina in 1993.[2] Other developing countries have outlawed it in the 2000s." From here: [Laws regarding rape - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape) Only thing I got wrong was the last state. North Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/36 "2010-10-23T20:06:35Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Wealthy men in Christian countries have always had no problem keeping a bevy of mistresses around. Likewise they have no problem visiting prostitutes. I’d say the big difference is with Islam you at least have some obligation to your mistresses and prostitutes, and need to take care of your kids if you knock one of them up. > > Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic practice, did not originate from Islam, is considered abhorrent in the vast majority of the Muslim world, and is gladly practiced by Christians and pagans in areas that have that custom. It has no more to do with Islam than, say, eating dates. > > The people I can think of who are the most accepting of slavery- say Taurags in Mali- are considered to be only loosely Muslim. Loosely Muslim. Is that like, not true Scotsmen? I’ll cede the argument on genital mutilation, but I dont buy your argument wrt prostitutes and mistresses. A man in the West may hire prostitutes and take mistresses, but not with religious sanction. Whereas Islam has that whole four wife rule, and IIRC, the Saudi princes have had hundreds, even thousands of wives. And in terms of my general argument – that the propensity of violence and brutality and sexism in Muslim societies is much greater than in Western societies I do not see anything you have said that effectively disputes it. It’s just reasonable to look at all those Muslim societies with such problems and think, “Well, as a practical matter, Islam probably had something to do with it.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/37 "2010-10-23T20:24:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > And in terms of my general argument – that the propensity of violence and brutality and sexism in Muslim societies is much greater than in Western societies I do not see anything you have said that effectively disputes it. It’s just reasonable to look at all those Muslim societies with such problems and think, “Well, as a practical matter, Islam probably had something to do with it.” I would like to be a little more accurate IMHO. For the problems outlined I would say the difference is that the effective opposition to the “problems” are active in Christianity and their leadership and almost non existant amongst the Islamic leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/38 "2010-10-24T00:07:18Z")
I would expect the country to mirror other nations that are majority Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/39 "2010-10-24T01:11:36Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I would like to be a little more accurate IMHO. For the problems outlined I would say the difference is that the effective opposition to the “problems” are active in Christianity and their leadership and almost non existant amongst the Islamic leadership. I diasgree. There are a lot of moderate Muslims who decry violence in their world. But they don’t get much press, especially over here. Just as I bet there are a lot more Moslems that know the name of that idiot minister who wanted to burn Korans, than there are Americans who know his name. We hear about fatwahs on Salman Rushdie, not about calls for peace and moderation. The press does not serve anyone well here or there, except the radicals. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042/40 "2010-10-24T03:01:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > We would still have a secular giovernment, so nothing would change. A Muslim majority would not be able to change the Bill of Rights or anything. A simple majority couldn’t, but a super majority could. The US constitution [can be changed,](http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html#process) and has been a few dozen times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-majority-religion-in-our-country-was-muslim/558042.md?page=3)