# What if the Monitor and the Merrimack had fired cannister? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965 "2015-04-18T04:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/22 "2015-04-20T03:31:57Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > There’s a bit of an odd history behind the half-charge issue. Ericsson had produced materials for the Navy previously, and among was a rather large gun that failed in a rather unfortunate manner, killing several observers. This wasn’t really Ericsson’s fault, but he was blamed by the main party involved. Almost right, but it was a _competitor’s_ gun that failed, _not_ Ericsson’s. The competitor was more politically savvy, however, and managed to smear Ericsson’s reputation anyway. From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The relations between Ericsson and Stockton [the cpmpetitor] had grown tense over time and, approaching the completion of the ship, Stockton began working to force Ericsson out of the project. Stockton carefully avoided letting outsiders know that Ericsson was the primary inventor. Stockton attempted to claim as much credit for himself as possible, even designing a second 12 in (300 mm) gun to be mounted in Princeton. Unfortunately, not understanding [Ericsson’s] design of the first gun (originally named “The Orator”, renamed “The Oregon” by Stockton), the second gun [Stockton’s] was fatally flawed. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, during a firing demonstration of Stockton’s gun, the breech ruptured, killing Secretary of State Abel P. Upshur and Secretary of the Navy Thomas Gilmer, as well as six others. Stockton attempted to deflect the blame onto Ericsson, with moderate success, despite the fact Ericsson’s gun was sound and it was Stockton’s gun that had failed. Stockton also refused to pay Ericsson, and by using his political connections, Stockton blocked the Navy from paying him. These actions led to Ericsson’s later deep resentment toward the U.S. Navy. [brackets mine, for clarity] ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/23 "2015-04-20T22:52:22Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Almost right, but it was a _competitor’s_ gun that failed, _not_ Ericsson’s. The competitor was more politically savvy, however, and managed to smear Ericsson’s reputation anyway. Your own cite does not quite support you. He and Stockton were cooperating on the same project - not directly competing. Granted, I didn’t include the details of the incident, but I pointed out the important part that Ericsson was not actually at fault and the other party was. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/24 "2015-04-21T15:22:53Z")
The CSS Virginia (Merrimac) was an unwieldy beast, at best. I believe that it had a draft of something like 30 feet-which made grounding a big possibility. It could only maneuver Hampton Roads at high tide. The Monitor was also unseaworthy-it sank in a gale because water leaked in from the deck openings. The 1936 film made about the engagement suggests that an attempt was made to board the Monitor-was this true? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/25 "2015-04-21T19:20:47Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Your own cite does not quite support you. He and Stockton were cooperating on the same project - not directly competing. Granted, I didn’t include the details of the incident, but I pointed out the important part that Ericsson was not actually at fault and the other party was. PoTAYto, poTAHto. Stockton started out in a business venture with Ericsson, but by the time the gun exploded, had made his own (defective) copy of Ericsson’s engineering and was actively trying to steer credit (and ultimately, money) away from Ericsson. That’s pretty competitive behavior, whether or not formally declared. But my use of the word “competitor” was incidental to the reason I posted – it was NOT Ericsson’s gun that failed. Your statement was ambiguous at best: > [@](#): > > Ericsson had produced materials for the Navy previously, and among was a rather large gun that failed in a rather unfortunate manner, killing several observers. I did not mean to come across as nitpicky, I just think it was a historical injustice that Ericsson’s…uh…partner/rival/whatever got so many people to believe it was Ericsson’s gun that blew up, and I was trying to be explicit that it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/26 "2015-04-21T21:05:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, since the CSA had no right to secede, they were never a legal entity, thus they had no right to change the name. Is there anyone you dislike as much as Southerners, Doc? Lawyers, used car salesmen, perhaps? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/27 "2015-04-21T22:20:28Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is there anyone you dislike as much as Southerners, Doc? Lawyers, used car salesmen, perhaps? > :dubious: Telemarketers. But not Southerners- Southern\* Apologists\* or Neo-Confederates. If you call the War Between the States the “War of Northern Aggression”, if you say most slaves were better off being slaves and were happy, if you say Slavery wasnt the primary cause of the war, if you use the term “Lost Cause” un-ironically, if you proudly fly a Confederate flag- I have some possible issues. Basically if you glorify Slavery and the CSA- I have issues. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/28 "2015-04-21T22:22:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is there anyone you dislike as much as Southerners, Doc? Lawyers, used car salesmen, perhaps? > :dubious: There’s a Matlock TV series joke in here somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/29 "2015-04-21T22:47:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Telemarketers. > > “War of Northern Aggression” 🙂 That may have been used up till 1920, but it is a joke now, as I have heard it. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/30 "2015-04-22T02:39:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > . . .If you call the War Between the States the “War of Northern Aggression”,. . . . Interesting choice of terminology considering the subject matter. In my (admittedly, somewhat limited) experience, most of the people who use the term “War Between the States” _are_ the Southern apologist types. But maybe that’s just confirmation bias. But getting back to the OP, it always surprised me how the battle ended up basically being a draw. Just looking at the two ships, the Monitor looked like a state of the art fighting machine, while the Virginia looked a floating log cabin. Monitor should have cleaned their clocks. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/31 "2015-04-22T12:17:42Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > But getting back to the OP, it always surprised me how the battle ended up basically being a draw. Just looking at the two ships, the Monitor looked like a state of the art fighting machine, while the Virginia looked a floating log cabin. Monitor should have cleaned their clocks. The CSA held the opinion that Virginia won because she briefly broke the Union blockade. The USA held that Monitor won because Virginia withdrew for engine repairs. Did Virginia indeed use Merimack’s engine? The Confederate Navy often had engine trouble, I thought it was due to using engines that were not made to close tolerance in a factory. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/32 "2015-04-22T12:46:36Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Interesting choice of terminology considering the subject matter. In my (admittedly, somewhat limited) experience, most of the people who use the term “War Between the States” _are_ the Southern apologist types. But maybe that’s just confirmation bias. > > But getting back to the OP, it always surprised me how the battle ended up basically being a draw. Just looking at the two ships, the Monitor looked like a state of the art fighting machine, while the Virginia looked a floating log cabin. Monitor should have cleaned their clocks. Or, given that their guns were unable to harm each other, Virginia should have shoved Monitor a few times, causing her to tip up enough to take on water. Monitor was horribly unseaworthy, as her subsequent destruction clearly showed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/33 "2015-04-22T13:04:20Z")
CSA Arkansas was a ram, the method of attack used by the Greeks and Persians. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/34 "2015-04-22T14:56:24Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Your own cite does not quite support you. He and Stockton were cooperating on the same project - not directly competing. Granted, I didn’t include the details of the incident, but I pointed out the important part that Ericsson was not actually at fault and the other party was. So, you’ve never been in a “cooperative” venture with an underhanded and destructive rival? One that will attempt to torpedo your involvement and poison your successes, figuring half a loaf mostly his is better than a whole loaf justly shared between partners? Count yourself lucky. It happens. A lot, when forced together by the vicissitudes of contracting with the government. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/35 "2015-04-22T15:53:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The CSA held the opinion that Virginia won because she briefly broke the Union blockade. The USA held that Monitor won because Virginia withdrew for engine repairs. > > Did Virginia indeed use Merimack’s engine? The Confederate Navy often had engine trouble, I thought it was due to using engines that were not made to close tolerance in a factory. Virginia used Merrimack’s engines, but being burnt and sunk hadn’t done them any particular favors. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/36 "2015-04-22T18:06:31Z")
> [@Rocketeer](#): > > Virginia used Merrimack’s engines, but being burnt and sunk hadn’t done them any particular favors. Ah. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/37 "2015-04-22T20:48:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The 1936 film made about the engagement suggests that an attempt was made to board the Monitor-was this true? No boarding attempts were made during the famous battle itself. However, for some time afterward, fhe two ships engaged in long-range standoffs. The _Monitor_ stayed blocking the Roads, under strict orders not to risk a fight, carefully staying in shallower areas where the _Virginia_ could not venture (because of her deep draft). The _Virginia_ would parade around trying to lure the _Monitor_ in close where she could ram or board. Her crew (by then) were equipped with wedges to try and jam the famous turret. This desperate ploy would have been more desperate than the Confederates expected, as _Monitor’s_ turret crew carried grenades to repel exactly this sort of attack. Eventually, the Union capture of Norfolk (personally directed by Lincoln himself!) deprived _Virginia_ of a base of operations, and she was burned to prevent capture. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/38 "2015-04-22T21:35:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, since the CSA had no right to secede, they were never a legal entity, thus they had no right to change the name. > > Thus, it was the Merrimack. 😃 > > It’s not “the War of Northern Aggression” either. 😛 Disregarding your incorrect statements about the nomenclature concerning the Late Unpleasantness, I think that most people would agree that even a pirate has the right to name a ship of which one has possession. _CSS Virginia_ it is! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/39 "2015-04-22T22:36:54Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Her crew (by then) were equipped with wedges to try and jam the famous turret. This desperate ploy would have been more desperate than the Confederates expected, as _Monitor’s_ turret crew carried grenades to repel exactly this sort of attack. Jesus Christ, “Brother against brother”. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/40 "2015-04-23T02:35:33Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Disregarding your incorrect statements about the nomenclature concerning the Late Unpleasantness, I think that most people would agree that even a pirate has the right to name a ship of which one has possession. _CSS Virginia_ it is! No, I wouldn’t. If North Korea decided to rename the _USS Pueblo_ the \*Glorious People’s Funtastical No Dong! \*and take it on a river propaganda cruise, being that it was never struck from the US Navy register the US and its allies would not be obliged to call it that. Until the South won and was recognized as an independent nation by the North and treaties for division of property were agreed upon & signed the so-called _CSS Virginia_ was (and still is) rightfully called the _USS Merrimack_. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/41 "2015-04-23T10:45:08Z")
So ships captured by the USA in the revolutionary war and renamed had invalid names until the revolution was won? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965.md?page=3)