# What if the Monitor and the Merrimack had fired cannister? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965 "2015-04-18T04:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/42 "2015-04-23T12:31:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > So ships captured by the USA in the revolutionary war and renamed had invalid names until the revolution was won? 🙂 That sounds like a fair interpretation to me. 😃 On that note, there was a ship in the Republic of Texas Navy called the _Independence_ (in this case, the Republic of Texas was a legally recognized independent nation, unlike the CSA several decades later). She ended up getting captured by the Mexicans during the Battle of the Brazos River. I always thought it a bit rude that the Mexicans didn’t even bother to change the name of the ship after pressing her into Mexican naval service. 😃 For what it’s worth, I refer to her as the _Virginia_ because at the time that was the name used by her crew, commander, and the military service she served under, even if all of the above were unlawful troublemakers who had stolen Federal property and made off with it. 😃 Regarding naval combat happening at much longer distances than would allow for canister shot, I seem to recall that the action between the two ships here happened at short enough range that the Confederate ship managed to ram her opponent (which resulted in both ships nearly being sunk when the ram became stuck before breaking off). On that note, battleships were designed with rams at least as late as the First World War, and in fact HMS _Dreadnought_ once rammed an sank a German submarine (the only enemy ship _Dreadnought_ ever engaged and sank in battle, ironically enough given her famous all-big-gun battery) On that note, submarines were not developed in WWII, contrary to what someone said. They were quite notorious both during the Spanish Civil War (where they were used by pirates who were most certainly not in fact the Italian Navy carrying out unrestricted submarine warfare in the Mediterranean Sea) and World War I (where they were most famously used by the German navy, although other navies also operated subs). And of course, one of the most famous early submarines saw action during the American Civil War, with the _C.S. Hunley_, which had a disastrous kill ratio of 3:1 against (she sank with all hands three times, including the final time when she managed to first engage and destroy the USS _Housatonic_ with a spar torpedo, a weapon which was the bastard child of a petard and a ram) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/43 "2015-04-23T13:54:29Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > On that note, there was a ship in the Republic of Texas Navy called the _Independence_ (in this case, the Republic of Texas was a legally recognized independent nation, unlike the CSA several decades later). She ended up getting captured by the Mexicans during the Battle of the Brazos River. I always thought it a bit rude that the Mexicans didn’t even bother to change the name of the ship after pressing her into Mexican naval service. 😃 The British often did not change the name of captured French ships. > [@Raguleader](#): > > Confederate ship managed to ram her opponent (which resulted in both ships nearly being sunk when the ram became stuck before breaking off). I was not aware that the ram was supposed to break free. > [@Raguleader](#): > > And of course, one of the most famous early submarines saw action during the American Civil War, with the _C.S. Hunley_, which had a disastrous kill ratio of 3:1 against (she sank with all hands three times, including the final time when she managed to first engage and destroy the USS _Housatonic_ with a spar torpedo, a weapon which was the bastard child of a petard and a ram) Yeah, but you should see the other guy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/44 "2015-04-23T14:20:38Z")
_Virginia’s_ ram broke off accidentally, not by design, and the resulting leak added to her list of battle damage, but was not fatal. Note that this ramming took place the day before _Monitor_ reached the site – during _Virginia’s_ battle against the wooden blockading ships. She rammed (and sank) the USS _Cumberland_, but lost her iron ram in the process. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/45 "2015-04-23T17:10:21Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > On that note, battleships were designed with rams at least as late as the First World War, and in fact HMS _Dreadnought_ once rammed an sank a German submarine (the only enemy ship _Dreadnought_ ever engaged and sank in battle, ironically enough given her famous all-big-gun battery) Altho yes, the Dreadnought did ram a U-Boat, it wasnt fitted with a ram, which fell out of favor in the 1880’s. > **[Ironclad warship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironclad_warship#Ram_craze)** > > An ironclad was a steam-propelled warship protected by steel or iron armor constructed from 1859 to the early 1890s. The ironclad was developed as a result of the vulnerability of wooden warships to explosive or incendiary shells. The first ironclad battleship, Gloire, was launched by the French Navy in November 1859, narrowly preempting the British Royal Navy. However, Britain built the first completely iron-hulled warships. > They were first used in warfare in 1862 during the American Civil Wa... ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/46 "2015-04-23T20:37:34Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > On that note, there was a ship in the Republic of Texas Navy called the _Independence_ (in this case, the Republic of Texas was a legally recognized independent nation, unlike the CSA several decades later). She ended up getting captured by the Mexicans during the Battle of the Brazos River. I always thought it a bit rude that the Mexicans didn’t even bother to change the name of the ship after pressing her into Mexican naval service. 😃 Possibly Mexico was thinking of their own Independence, which they had only gained a short while before. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965/47 "2015-04-23T21:27:30Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I always thought it a bit rude that the Mexicans didn’t even bother to change the name of the ship after pressing her into Mexican naval service. I believe that is why the British sometimes kept the name of captured ships, to taunt the enemy, and strut about tough guy fashion in front of other countries. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-monitor-and-the-merrimack-had-fired-cannister/717965.md?page=2)