# What if the printing press had been invented in antiquity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633 "2011-10-14T14:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/21 "2011-10-14T21:36:40Z")
BTW, in the Classical Mediterranean world, the usual writing surface was not animal-skin parchment (very expensive) but papyrus. And, if paper were not invented, and printing produced sufficient demand, [papyrus sedge](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_papyrus) could conceivably be planted on an industrial-plantation scale all over the Nile Delta and maybe elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/22 "2011-10-14T21:48:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Western Civ is based on antisemitism?! It’s my running theory. The Renaissance is famous for art and mechanics (most war machines). Why? Well because if you’re the prince of a medival city-state, you want to show off and kick ass. You hire on scientists and artists to make stuff for you. But why does that happen when it happens, and not before? Well there was a surge of wealth, starting in Italy, around that time. This is the same time as Pawnbrokers and Jews practicing usury on the Christians (which was allowed, whereas practicing usury on other Jews was not) started to pick up – both in Italy. > **[History of banking | Medieval Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Medieval_Europe)** > > The roots of modern banking are traceable to medieval and early Renaissance Europe, including Italy's Lombards in the 12th and 13th centuries, France's Cahorsins in the 13th century and in particular the rich Italian cities such as Florence, Venice, and Genoa. > **[Lombard banking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_banking)** > > Lombard banking refers to the business of Italian moneylenders generally referred to as "Lombards" (in medieval times Northern Italy was referred as Lombardy, a much larger region than the modern Lombardy). The term was often used in a derogatory sense, as Lombard banking was associated with the sin of usury. > Lombard lenders became active throughout Western Europe in the 13th and 14th centuries, emigrating from major merchant centers in Tuscany such as Florence, Lucca and Siena,: 63  and in Nort... > **[History of pawnbroking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pawnbroking)** > > Pawnbroking, lending money on portable security, began in ancient history. The practice was widespread in many parts of the world, from ancient Greece to medieval China and medieval Europe. > Mosaic law precluded pawnbroking as it forbade the acceptance of interest from a poor borrower, and Jews were forbidden to lend money at interest to each other, although they could charge interest to non-Jews. Until the Reformation, Christians were also forbidden to lend to each other for interest. > The earli... And as said, this is the same time period as antisemitism started to be advanced by the Pope (starting with Benedict XIII). > **[History of the Jews in Italy | Middle Ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_the_Italian_Middle_Ages#Middle_Ages)** > > There were several expulsions, including a brief one from Bologna in 1172, and forced conversions: in Trani in 1380 there were four synagogues, transformed into churches at the time of Charles III of Naples, while 310 local Jews were forced to be baptized. A nephew of Rabbi Nathan ben Jehiel acted as administrator of the property of Pope Alexander III, who showed his amicable feelings toward the Jews at the Lateran Council of 1179. He defeated the designs of hostile prelates who advocated Among t... It’s speculation as to why these two things would be linked, but it makes sense that it would be at the height of distrust of ones neighbors that society would develop the idea of personal property. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/23 "2011-10-14T22:03:51Z")
Sage Rat, I can say that’s a very… original… theory. I can also say it’s definitely… unique. Wildly unique. Flagrantly unique. Complete nonsense, too. The roots are a bit more prosaic and go back much earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/24 "2011-10-14T22:14:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I see no reason why a printing industry could not flourish without whatever you’re talking about, in an ancient Greek society that seems to have supported a pretty big book-copying industry and a lot of highly bureaucratic papyrus-driven governments (especially in the Hellenistic period). I don’t think there was a “book-copying industry”. If you wanted a book, you might hire a copyists to copy it for you. I might be wrong on that point. Industry is a sort of odd word for it, overall. To go back to modern-day Mexico, for example, my brother had a devil of a time building his house there. The problem is that there will be say one man who is fairly skilled, knows how to build a proper house, and can actually give you your money’s worth without it falling down or blowing up (as is, my brother says that he sees about one house explode off in the distance every week since most aren’t built by a man like this). This man will almost always be relatively young, sort of the personal apprentice of the previous master builder in the region. He’ll get a few wealthy clients, build a few proper houses, but then after that he doesn’t care anymore. He’s earned as much of a reputation as he is going to, built as fancy a house as he is going to, and he’ll never earn any more money because it all goes to his family and cousins. If you hire him after he’s stopped caring any more, or you aren’t as properly wealthy as his other clients (like my brother), then he’ll not do any work himself, and just assign whoever happens to be sitting about to build your house. You can say that there’s a Construction Industry in Mexico. But it will never quite be the same as the Construction Industry in the US. You don’t get consistent results, with everything built to a particular standard of quality. The goal isn’t money, it’s just name. But because of being in a class-based society, ‘name’ has a cap. And in a place like this, when you do business, it’s always with relatives. If you’re a contractor, then the person you call to do the plumbing on your current project will always be a brother or a cousin, not the best company in town. If your cousin isn’t very good, you’re still stuck for it. All of the houses that you build will be beautiful, with awful plumbing. Basically, everything is made to be ‘just good enough’. Things which are made well are rare and can only be the property of the very wealthy. If you can print enough books for the top ten nobles in the land, then you’re all done. There isn’t any benefit to making a million copies, even if the average person could read. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/25 "2011-10-14T22:16:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Ah, if only it had occurred to them to use movable type to print porn, it would have spread like wildfire, like VCRs and the internet. Well, of course, you’d need block-printing for the pictures, but that ain’t a big intuitive leap for the culture that invented the red-figure vase! And it might even stimulate the invention of lithography! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/26 "2011-10-14T22:19:03Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sage Rat, I can say that’s a very… original… theory. I can also say it’s definitely… unique. Wildly unique. Flagrantly unique. Complete nonsense, too. The roots are a bit more prosaic and go back much earlier. You deny which of these? 1. The Jews acted as first bankers and loaners in Medieval Europe, most notably during the time of greatest oppression. 2. The success of this lead to Europeans to press for usury to be allowed, and to start their own businesses. 3. One of these first businesses was the introduction of paper. 4. Shortly after, the Renaissance occurred. 5. The Renaissance lead into the modern world for Europe. The Middle East and China, both of which had paper and clockwork, did not follow the same development. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/27 "2011-10-14T22:27:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, we’re not just talking about Greece – the contemporary Phoenicians (who invented the alphabet) would use printing too (mainly for commercial purposes, at first). And before long, the government of the Persian Empire would be using printed paperwork. And the [Old Persian script](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Persian_language#Script) BTW, was a “semi-alphabetic” syllabary and might have been efficiently printable. Likewise with the [Devanagari](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari) script of India. So, add those cultures to the print-bound world before too long. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/28 "2011-10-14T22:34:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You deny which of these? Just a few notes here. Please correct my misimpressions. > [@](#): > > 1. The Jews acted as first bankers and loaners in Medieval Europe, most notably during the time of greatest oppression. There had to be quite a bit of economic development leading up to the need for bankers and money loans. Jews were going to Hell anyway, so they didn’t worry about the ban on usury. This role as the money lenders was an important factor in the oppression. > [@](#): > > 1. The success of this lead to Europeans to press for usury to be allowed, and to start their own businesses. To start bigger business with paid employees maybe. I guess this would be the root of the merchant class which could earn it’s way out of peasantry. > [@](#): > > 1. One of these first businesses was the introduction of paper. How about some more detail on that? > [@](#): > > 1. Shortly after, the Renaissance occurred. \ Ok > [@](#): > > 1. The Renaissance lead into the modern world for Europe. The Middle East and China, both of which had paper and clockwork, did not follow the same development. To my earlier point, what did they need to print? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/29 "2011-10-14T22:37:58Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > This is the same time as Pawnbrokers and Jews practicing usury on the Christians (which was allowed, whereas practicing usury on other Jews was not) . . . 😕 Is there something in the Talmud against it? A rule that applies only to treatment of Jews and exempts treatment of Christians? Because I’ve seen that sort of thing alleged before, and it always turned out to be spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/30 "2011-10-14T23:10:01Z")
Referring to the possibility of ancient Greeks doing porn: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, of course, you’d need block-printing for the pictures, but that ain’t a big intuitive leap for the culture that invented the red-figure vase! And it might even stimulate the invention of lithography! 🙂 They did porn. I took an Art History class a few years back. The teacher showed us a picture of a painted vase showing two men having anal sex. (I wondered, though, what the ambient attitude might have been in those days. Would such a portrayal have been considered “illigitemate” or “dirty” in a sense similar to the modern view of porn? Or would it have been considered a perfectly valid subject to portray in art? The point here (in my mind) is NOT whether homosexual activity is “legit”, but whether portrayal of same in art was “legit”.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/31 "2011-10-14T23:25:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. The Jews acted as first bankers and loaners in Medieval Europe, most notably during the time of greatest oppression. That is dubious. There were certainly many prominent Jewish bankers bankers, but it’s not clear whether they were even the most significant, at least in Italy. They probably were in Germany, though. There was also an existing tradition of Lombard banking. > [@](#): > > 1. The success of this lead to Europeans to press for usury to be allowed, and to start their own businesses. Yes and no - monasteries throughout Europe were doing the same for quite a while. Restrictions on lending weren’t very vigorously enforced. > [@](#): > > 1. One of these first businesses was the introduction of paper. Not really, Paper was growing but not at first a significant industry and was not even a very valued product at first. Textiles were vastly more important, and paper was in fact largely an off-shoot, since paper production then used scrap cloth. In order, improvements in agriculture, textiles, and metal production all fed each other and were most important for economic development. > [@](#): > > 1. Shortly after, the Renaissance occurred. True, but correlation, and not causation. The Renaissance benefited frm having paper, but it was not a critical product. > [@](#): > > 1. The Renaissance lead into the modern world for Europe. The Middle East and China, both of which had paper and clockwork, did not follow the same development. No argument there. But you can kinda say the same for all the periods before, including the “Dark” ages. Growth, though not uninterrupted and not in all aspects at all times, was a hallmark of Christendom even as Rome as falling. Italy’s growth was spurred by several developments: the final removal of Byzantine armies, diversity of the separated but closely-located cities, and easy access to Mediteranean trade. In fact, many of the same qualities which led to the rise of Rome lef to a very different rise of Italy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/32 "2011-10-14T23:27:34Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Referring to the possibility of ancient Greeks doing porn: > They did porn. I took an Art History class a few years back. The teacher showed us a picture of a painted vase showing two men having anal sex. (I wondered, though, what the ambient attitude might have been in those days. Would such a portrayal have been considered “illigitemate” or “dirty” in a sense similar to the modern view of porn? Or would it have been considered a perfectly valid subject to portray in art? The point here (in my mind) is NOT whether homosexual activity is “legit”, but whether portrayal of same in art was “legit”.) In [_Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea,_](http://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Wine-Dark-Sea-Greeks-Matter/dp/0385495536) Thomas Cahill says the Greeks produced erotic/pornographic art for private enjoyment at home, but did not display it in public. But, of course, nude figures as such were a different category. (Gay porn was as legit as any other.) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/33 "2011-10-14T23:30:10Z")
I hypothesize we wouldn’t have just three monotheistic world religions, what with all that thinkin’ for yourself and all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/34 "2011-10-15T06:33:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > . . . The printing press may have changed history significantly, but then again it might not have. The Arabs were building animatronic devices and performing experiments according to the scientific method, all with paper at hand. But you’ll note that it didn’t really lead anywhere. . . . Wasn’t the high Arab civilization pretty much murdered by invasions, Mongols and Tatars and the like? So, really, a lot would depend on the course of the rise and fall of civilizations, which we can’t predict. Maybe Greece would have been strong enough to fight off the Romans… But maybe the waves of migration that overwhelmed Rome would, then, have overwhelmed Greece. Absolutely no way to know. Isaac Asimov, in an essay, “The Tragedy of the Moon,” wondered what would have happened if Venus had a large moon, much like the Earth’s moon. It would have been visible to the naked eye, and would have prompted a much earlier discovery of orbital mechanics and a heliocentric model. Science would have had a vast head start, and our history might be thousands of years ahead of where we are now… Or, y’know, we might all be dead from the thermonuclear exchange between the Chinese and the Indians in 900 B.C. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/35 "2011-10-15T18:20:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Wasn’t the high Arab civilization pretty much murdered by invasions, Mongols and Tatars and the like? Perhaps with printing and a broadly literate population, that (or any) civilization might have been more resilient – bits and pieces of its collective knowledge being stored in minds and books here and there all over the place, easy to piece together even if the main centers of learning and their inhabitants are destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/36 "2011-10-15T18:35:29Z")
600 BC? God woulda found a way to bring Jesus to earth before the printing press was invented, then. If people would have come up with a way to show what was being said at the time of Christ, God would have needed to move the goalposts back just a bit further. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/37 "2011-10-15T19:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Western Civ is based on antisemitism? yes, according to my professor of medieval/Renaisance history. I remember him saying “if the Jews hadn’t existed, the Church would have had to invent them”, because they were essential for society to function. Catholic law prohibited “usury”–defined as charging any interest at all on loans.This made banking impossible. As commerce developed, and became as important as agriculture, it became essential to provide loans to the new, rising class of businessmen. But the Church refused to allow interest. Western civ was changing, but the Church wasn’t. So the only place to get a loan was from the Jews. And it’s pretty easy to see why antisemitism followed. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/38 "2011-10-15T19:46:20Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I remember him saying “if the Jews hadn’t existed, the Church would have had to invent them”, because they were essential for society to function. Catholic law prohibited “usury”–defined as charging any interest at all on loans.This made banking impossible. How many times do I have to go over this? No, No, NO! Gah! People don’t bother to learn anything about history and then spew whatever someone supposedly told them he felt on the internet. For a brief start: banking went along just fine before the rise of large Jewish finance houses, antisemitism predates Christianity, and in any case even the idea that the Church completely prohibited interest is not particualrly accurate, either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/39 "2011-10-15T20:29:35Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > 600 BC? God woulda found a way to bring Jesus to earth before the printing press was invented, then. If people would have come up with a way to show what was being said at the time of Christ, God would have needed to move the goalposts back just a bit further. 😕 Is this a whoosh? Why would God be inimical to print existing in Jesus’ time? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633/40 "2011-10-15T20:34:33Z")
Remember, we’re talking about **all** the literate cultures from Carthage and Rome to India acquiring print, probably within 50 years or less of introduction, as it’s not a difficult technology to copy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-printing-press-had-been-invented-in-antiquity/599633.md?page=3)