# What if the US military lost all its satellites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 1, 2019, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770 "2019-02-01T05:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/21 "2019-02-01T15:54:55Z")
[QUOTE=MichaelEmouse] > [@](#): > > Could drone control and communication still be accomplished with communications towers, relay aircraft, land vehicles with retractable masts or just transmitters on the ground using frequencies low enough to bounce off the ionosphere or follow the contours of the earth? For drones with weapons? The pilots are on the other side of the world. Just transmitting the live picture feed takes a bit of bandwidth. It would be easier to just employ more conventional attack aviation. If the satellites were gone, it would be easier to send in a ton of helicopters, fighters and bombers than to try and jerry up some kind of communication network for drones. > [@](#): > > With a loss of accuracy and coverage, couldn’t they use on LORAN\* or something similar? How small can it get? If a PL can’t wear it on his/her wrist, they’re going to get lost. Planes and vehicles are not going to be as big of an issue. 1) vehicles mainly stay on or near roads, so terrain association and navigation is a bit easier. 2) pilots are, I’d think, much better at following a map and figuring out where on the charts they are. 3)I don’t know about the Navy, but I assume someone on that large shit knows how to use a sextant But I’m talking about a platoon or squad of soldiers trying to get from one side of the map to the other. Or calling for fire on the enemy with only a map and compass to decipher the enemy’s location. We’re not as good at such things as we used to be. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/22 "2019-02-01T15:59:04Z")
In addition to the space capabilities already mentioned, the US military also operates a [number of weather satellites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Meteorological_Satellite_Program). Others [detect rocket launches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-Based_Infrared_System). There used to be a program that [would detect nuclear detonations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_(satellite)) but not for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/23 "2019-02-01T15:59:45Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > And yet somehow we managed to navigate our way through WW2 without a GPS… What a silly point to make. We managed to fight off the British using swords and muskets, so every current soldier must be experts at using swords and muskets, right? What people _used_ to be good at is irrelevant. What people _can be taught_ is irrelevant. What is relevant is, _What are our current capabilities?_. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/24 "2019-02-01T16:20:55Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > And yet somehow we managed to navigate our way through WW2 without a GPS… In WW2, if you were bombing a target from 30,000 feet using unguided gravity bombs and a Norden bomb sight, you had to drop a whole lot of bombs to have a decent chance of hitting your desired target. If you were the attacking force, that meant you had to build a lot of bombs, and your bomber couldn’t have very many targets on his list for any single flight. In fact, you would send multiple bombers on a single mission, each carrying multiple bombs, to have high assurance of mission success. That puts a lot of hardware and a lot of airmen at risk. If you were the defender, that meant a lot more collateral damage as dozens of bombs rained down in a several-block radius of the target. GPS-guided munitions allow each bomb to reliably hit its intended target. If you’re the attacking force, you’re making far fewer bombs, and instead of a fleet of bombers, you can attack the target with one single-seat fighter/attack jet carrying one or two GPS-guided bombs. If you’re the defender, your target gets destroyed, but the city around it suffers far less collateral damage than it otherwise would. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/25 "2019-02-01T16:44:38Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > With a loss of accuracy and coverage, couldn’t they use on LORAN\* or something similar? I’m not sure about the range and accuracy of the LORAN-C though. It would presumably be much easier to jam than satellite links based on directional antennae, correct? LORAN-C doesn’t exist anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/26 "2019-02-01T17:37:31Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Once people realize our utter dependency on satellites, it starts to make sense why space dominance is so important and why the Space Force is not just a gimmick. Except that it is completely a gimmick as espoused by Trump, who has no idea what he is talking about. The United States already as a “Space Force” in the United States Air Force Space Command (AFSPC) which is a major command under the United States Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM). There could be an argument made for moving AFSPC from under USSTRATCOM and into a Unified Combatant Command (UCC) directly within the DOD, since it actually was until 2002 where it was downgraded to a MAJCOM for reasons that have to do more with bureaucracy than practicality. AFSPC is responsible for the ULA rocket missions which orbit all national security payloads, most NOAA and many NASA satellites, and most NASA interplanetary missions as well as maintaining orbital space awareness and tracking space hazards such as debris, charged particle belts, and solar weather events. AFSPC is already doing a fine job of this to the point of being a resource for many other allied and neutral nations, and while there has long been discussion about creating a “Space Force”, it is mostly by people disappointed that the Air Force found a crewed space program to be of little practical value with advances in satellite surveillance technology and cancelled the Manned Orbiting Laboratory and the X-20 “Dyna-Soar”, and only very reluctantly and expensively participated in the Space Transportation System (“Shuttle”) before the Challenger failure made it clear that it required alternative access to space. The current GPS satellite constellation has 31 operation satellites in Medium Earth Orbit altitudes. With more than three satellites over the horizon, receivers can calculate a location on the surface of the Earth to within a few meters of precision, which is adequate for nearly every navigational purpose. Cutting down the constellation to the point that there were less than three satellites would require taking out nearly half of the standard 24 sat constellation an including birds that are in reserve, which is probably beyond the ASAT capabilities of any nation. More concerning are weather monitoring satellites which are aging without replacement, and the Milstar series. The military has been moving to commercial satellite communications for personnel usage, and those are at lower altitudes and not as well protected against both natural and hostile threats. A Carrington-type solar could potentially damage or disrupt many military satellites and potentially all commercial satellites in MEO or lower, which would hobble US and NATO response to any aggressive action by an adversary which is not as dependent upon satellites for communications and navigation. > [@jnglmassiv](#): > > There used to be a program that [would detect nuclear detonations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_(satellite)) but not for a while. The efforts at detecting nuclear detonations are now directed at [non-radiative detection](https://www.wired.com/2013/02/nuclear-sensors/), largely because of how easy it is to test weapons underground where no direct radiation is evident. (Radioactive fallout may still be released depending on how far underground and how well protected it is, but not the X-rays from the event itself which are absorbed by the earth.) > [@silenus](#): > > LORAN-C doesn’t exist anymore. Loran-C was never in wide use by the military and could be readily spoofed by an adversary. Note that not all navigation systems rely upon GPS. ICBMs and SLBMs use inertial navigation (sometimes combined with astro-inertial navigation using stellar references to correct in mid-flight). Although GPS has become the standard method for land and sea navigation, commercial and military aircraft typically use a blended inertial-GPS solution (space-integrated GPS-INS or SIGI) because GPS coverage can sometimes be problematic when moving at aircraft speeds. While turning off the GPS solution would significantly degrade precision, the INS solution will still give enough accuracy to guide to an airport or other fixed destination/target. Map and compass navigation is not that difficult to learn that by itself would pose a problem (especially with modern high precision maps developed with satellite imagery), but the combined lack of direct communications and precision location would certainly pose a significant challenge to modern combined-arms and close air support tactics. Nobody wants the airstrike they just called to come raining down upon them and you don’t want your top cover heading off thirty degrees off mark because they couldn’t make out directions. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/27 "2019-02-01T17:38:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This saddens me. The first thing that will happen in a major conflict with a near-peer adversary will be satellites being knocked out of the sky. Not necessarily. Use of space assets can be denied by any number of approaches. GPS is especially susceptible to jamming and spoofing. Using methods that stop short of physical destruction of an asset has some advantages for the attacker. The US Government has been addressing this seriously for almost 20 years. The unclassified, colloquial term is “[A Day Without Space](https://modernbattlespace.com/2018/11/19/day-without-space-re-thinking-pnt-threat-environment/#.XFR-hZXTnyM)”. Some broad approaches to coping with loss or degradation of space assets have been published. However, it is hard to do a serious critique, since the detailed solutions haven’t been published (and won’t be until long after they’ve lost relevance). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/28 "2019-02-01T17:42:58Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > Not necessarily. Use of space assets can be denied by any number of approaches. GPS is especially susceptible to jamming and spoofing. Using methods that stop short of physical destruction of an asset has some advantages for the attacker. You’re right. More “knocked out” physically, or logically, or, uh…, “cyberly” ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/29 "2019-02-01T18:14:54Z")
I’d like to enlarge my question to what’s likely to be possible within the next decade or so rather than limiting the discussion to the US military’s current systems. So, presume the US had to get ready to have use of its satellites denied in the next decade. What would it do to prepare? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Cutting down the constellation to the point that there were less than three satellites would require taking out nearly half of the standard 24 sat constellation an including birds that are in reserve, which is probably beyond the ASAT capabilities of any nation. Even beyond the capabilities of the US? I take it it’s more difficult to shoot down a satellite than put one up? Can satellites defend in some way? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Loran-C was never in wide use by the military and could be readily spoofed by an adversary. Easier to spoof than GPS? What makes LORAN-C or similar systems easy to spoof? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/30 "2019-02-01T18:26:47Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Even beyond the capabilities of the US? I take it it’s more difficult to shoot down a satellite than put one up? Can satellites defend in some way? I believe the Chinese used a “killer satellite” to take out one of their old weather sats. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/31 "2019-02-01T19:08:52Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > I know the vast majority of regular internet is carried through regular or undersea cables, not satellites. Is NIPR, SIPR, JWICS different? That is correct. I can’t tell you the exact percentages and breakdown (nobody can!), but in terms of administrative and command & control using the net, probably less of 5% of it traverses SATCOM. But it is a CRITICAL 5% enabling much of the U.S. warfighting capabilities at the highest level. Without it, there would be a period of severe degradation adjusting to that. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/32 "2019-02-01T19:22:50Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Except that it is completely a gimmick as espoused by Trump, who has no idea what he is talking about. The United States already as a “Space Force” in the United States Air Force Space Command (AFSPC) which is a major command under the United States Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM). But there is also a “Space Force” within the Army–the SMDC. It _does_ make sense to reorganize these groups into a single, unified command. At the very least, it should a UCC like you mention. > [@](#): > > AFSPC is responsible for the ULA rocket missions which orbit all national security payloads, Hey now! SpaceX joined in last month. > [@](#): > > Cutting down the constellation to the point that there were less than three satellites would require taking out nearly half of the standard 24 sat constellation an including birds that are in reserve, which is probably beyond the ASAT capabilities of any nation. Sure, but don’t fight the OP’s hypothetical. He says _all_ satellite’s are gone. Not even you could say what a drunken panda bear is capable of. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/33 "2019-02-01T19:40:16Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Oh, we still have maps. Hell, some of us even still carry a compass. Possessing the tools is different than possessing the knowledge and skill to use them effectively. The sad truth is that the majority of the military cannot use a paper map to navigate without the aid of a GPS. You mean that basic navigational skill that your average 14 year old Boy Scout can accomplish? That’s kind of shocking. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/34 "2019-02-01T20:05:26Z")
Better also consider the economic damage at home. A sudden loss of GPS would play havoc with supply chains, material transport, etc. GPS has become embedded in many critical devices that will stop working. And while heavy aircraft have inertial guidance systems, light aircraft almost universally do not. Light aircraft before GPS navigated by VOR, ADF, and LORAN-C around the coasts. LORAN is gone, and I believe the number of ADF stations has been reduced. This won’t be a huge problem for IFR pilots who can navigate just fine with VOR and ADF, but visual pilots who learned ti rely on GPS will have to re-learn their dead reckoning skills. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/35 "2019-02-01T20:09:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You mean that basic navigational skill that your average 14 year old Boy Scout can accomplish? That’s kind of shocking. You mean those “orienteering” courses the Boy Scouts do for their little badges? No. Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/36 "2019-02-01T20:12:16Z")
I’ve mentioned it here before, but you people would be surprised to hear that probably 80% of the Army thinks their compasses don’t point to geographic north because there is an iron ore deposit near Hudson Bay that is throwing off their needle. How’s that for “shocking”. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/37 "2019-02-01T20:22:12Z")
Land navigation, while taught during initial entry training, is not a graded event or graduation requirement. After the initial Physical Assessment at Ranger School, the highest attrition event is land navigation. Similarly, it is the most failed event at Special Forces Selection. At required leadership training, it is one of the most failed, and most stressed over, events. It is not an easy task, certainly not something any boy scout can do. It is difficult. Throw on a 70 pound rucksack, and the stresses and rigors of combat and it gets even harder. With that said, soldiers really have no excuse for sucking at it so badly. But they do. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/38 "2019-02-01T21:22:53Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Land navigation, while taught during initial entry training, is not a graded event or graduation requirement. After the initial Physical Assessment at Ranger School, the highest attrition event is land navigation. Similarly, it is the most failed event at Special Forces Selection. At required leadership training, it is one of the most failed, and most stressed over, events. It is not an easy task, certainly not something any boy scout can do. It is difficult. Throw on a 70 pound rucksack, and the stresses and rigors of combat and it gets even harder. > With that said, soldiers really have no excuse for sucking at it so badly. But they do. Well for starters, they could give them a decent orienteering compass with declination adjustment. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/39 "2019-02-01T22:05:20Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You mean that basic navigational skill that your average 14 year old Boy Scout can accomplish? That’s kind of shocking. Well, the Army is starting to teach navigating skills again. And they are going to their less “advanced” allies like the Poles for help in learning to handle degraded communications. And the boy scouts don’t have to quietly navigate in the dark through arbitrary terrain while their lives depend on it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770/40 "2019-02-02T20:25:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > In that case, you improvise. Google “USS Wahoo” and “Wewak.” 😛 I’ll save you a few clicks: [USS Wahoo (SS-238) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wahoo_(SS-238)#Third_patrol,_January_%E2%80%93_February_1943) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-the-us-military-lost-all-its-satellites/828770.md?page=3)