# What if U.S. military returned to the M1 Garand rifle? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823 "2010-12-30T14:40:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/121 "2011-01-11T18:31:24Z")
While a stock Ar-15 trigger may be nothing special, I’ve yet to handle a bullpup of any make that had a trigger that rose even to that level. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/122 "2011-01-11T18:34:52Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > Leave it to Steyr to design something like that. They have a lot of interesting designs, even if they’re not always exactly useful. Like the pistol whose name escapes me that you could cock by squeezing the trigger guard backwards. Cool idea, but it’s solving a problem nobody really had. Are you thinking of the Vektor CP1 (which has the safety mounted on the front of the trigger guard)? The two-stage semi-auto/auto trigger is actually a really good ergonomic feature, albeit one that does require different training, insofar as it doesn’t make it necessary to check the fire selector to see whether you are in semi-auto or auto (or accidentally put yourself on safe when intending to go to semi). The same feature is used on the FN P90 very effectively. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/123 "2011-01-11T18:51:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Are you thinking of the Vektor CP1 (which has the safety mounted on the front of the trigger guard)? Whoops, my bad. I was actually thinking of the [Heckler and Koch P7.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_P7) I got my GmbHs confused. :smack: Steyr makes really nice pistols as a matter of fact. If a Steyr M magically dropped from the sky into my lap I’d be rather pleased with it. As for the AUG reloads I suppose if that’s what you’re used to from the get go that it works, but for someone who is used to a normal configuration they’re confusing, at least at first. Enough training and muscle memory would overcome that. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/124 "2011-01-11T18:59:19Z")
There are pistols similar to what **Cluricaun** describes… A long time ago there was the [JO. LO. AR.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JO.LO.AR.) There was also a Chinese-made 9mm that was imported into the US in smallish numbers in the late 80’s or early 90’s that actually did cock by pulling back on the trigger guard. Its name escapes me and I can’t access weapons sites from work. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/125 "2011-01-11T19:03:36Z")
I think that the Chinese pistol was a Chicom knockoff of the P7 actually. I kind of want one of those JO.LO.AR guns now. There’s a recurring theme in my posts. Someone or myself mentions a gun and I say that I want one. I kind of want any gun, even really bad ones. Just because. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/126 "2011-01-11T19:07:59Z")
Nope, it is trigger guard cocked and it was the [M-77.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_77_pistol) You were right about there being such a gun, you just got the wrong manufacturer. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/127 "2011-01-11T19:15:08Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Nope, it is trigger guard cocked and it was the [M-77.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_77_pistol) You were right about there being such a gun, you just got the wrong manufacturer. THAT’S the one. There was a write up on those in one of the gun magazines within the last two years or so. The P7 has a cocking lever in front of the trigger guard, but that Chicom one is what I was picturing in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/128 "2011-01-11T19:47:58Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > Edit - Alessan - That’s interesting too. But I think that they’d quickly figure out that having to drop the rifle down to reload isn’t the greatest tactical advantage. I don’t know how they’re trained to change magazines - for all I know, they use their right hands. Besides, it’s not as if anyone reloads while exposed to enemy fire. Your find cover, and then you change mags. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/129 "2011-01-11T20:28:36Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > The P7 has a cocking lever in front of the trigger guard, Correction: the [P7](http://www.hkp7.com/graphics/p7m8cut1small.jpg) has a squeeze cocking mechanism built into the grip in lieu of a manual safety. This actually rotates the firing pin group out of line with the chamber when not depressed, thereby rendering the gun inert. It is a very intuitive system, although new users tend to hold the grip too hard, not realizing that the squeezecocker only requires a few pounds to retain it once actuated. The reason it hasn’t been utilized on more weapons are because HK held the patent on it until the late 'Nineties, and it is basically incompatible with the the Browning-style tilting barrel cam lockup has dominated autoloading handgun designs. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823/130 "2011-01-11T20:47:11Z")
Very interesting. Obviously I don’t know much about the P7, I’d only heard about it in passing and had incorrect information and didn’t even read the link I’d posted in the interest of not being that guy who is a Wiki expert. 🙂 As is my habit I priced out one after bringing it up, and they’re pretty expensive for a 35 year old design, as much if not more than a modern high end Euro 9mm. But now I’m on a mission to find one at a gun show and play with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-u-s-military-returned-to-the-m1-garand-rifle/565823.md?page=6)